Experimental engine generator setup

[markopolo]

I see the same instructions you found on their site


Also found this on another site: http://marinewarehouse.net/images/ba...-12-manual.pdf and it matches the colors you noted.

Probably best to find out exactly what was sent to you to make sure it is what you ordered.

[booster]

Good find, my searches didn't bring up that one.

Interesting that they have two red wires, with different functions. One for power and one for initiate. I only have one red. That would mean either the orange or yellow would have to be initiate and not what is listed, if green is field, which it probably is based on wire size. The red, black and green are larger than the orange and yellow, so probably power, ground and field. I am hoping the orange is the lamp, which I don't need and the yellow is initiate, so I don't have to pull more wires. We will see Monday, I hope.

[markopolo]

Looks like the instructions I found are old - dating back to 2000 or maybe even earlier.

You get to have a day off

[djkeev]

Originally Posted by avanti

And then there is the move toward 48 volt vehicle electrical systems. These vehicles apparently tend to use electrical vs mechanical power for auxiliary devices such as A/C compressors, power steering and so on. I read somewhere about a new engine that has no belts at all. Not sure how that will play out in the RV world.

I think that if someone were to tap into the Toyota Prius concept for RV stationary A/C, they would have a gold mine!
Redesign the RV On Board Generators after the Prius model.

The Prius has no belts and has electric A/C .
You can sit stationary for quite awhile with the A/C running before the engine kicks on to recharge the battery for a bit.
The same is true for heat.
They are very efficient units for idling....... That while the HVAC systems run, the engine does not always run.
When the engine does come on, it's very quiet and smooth.

Food for thought.......
An untapped technology gold mine for someone smarter and better financed that I.

Dave

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by djkeev

I think that if someone were to tap into the Toyota Prius concept for RV stationary A/C, they would have a gold mine!
Redesign the RV On Board Generators after the Prius model.

Roadtrek's Volt-Start is a step in that direction.

Now if I can just hack into my van's Can-Buss maybe I can make mine do that?

[booster]

Just got back from the first driving test of things. The batteries were down, maybe 100ah, but I don't really know because they had been disconnected and back on again many times in the early testing, so the monitor was not accurate.

Started in the garage with the separator open, pulled out before connecting. Idle in the 700rpm range at that point. Had the output in the low setting. It flashed up to about 215 amps for about 20 seconds and then started down to under 200 quickly. By the time I got a block or two to the main road, it had settled at about 160/170. That is not full output, I think, so the batteries were limiting the current. They start to taper in acceptance by 70%, so that makes sense. Drove about 20 minutes and the amps were below 100 so I stopped and checked the alternator temps and got 135/125*F on 65 degree day.

As expected, it went to float way early, when it was still pulling 60 amps to the batteries, so I used the absorption lock button which did immediately put it back in absorption and hold it there. After a while, when the amps were down to about 30, I shut off the absorption lock, and it started stepping to float, so that worked also. I repeated the lock and unlock of absorption after a gas stop to see if any timers would hold it in absorption longer, and didn't see anything like that. It locked into absorption and then unlocked and went to float when unlocked.

All and all it went as expected with no real surprises, but was a relatively small recovery compared to be down 80%. Still need to test that, but I think the only thing that might change would be the amp limits if the amps run too high for too long.

There is a large flash spike of amps when you first connect to low batteries with cold alternators and high idle speed when you first start. I don't think amount that could happen would hurt anything, but might be able to blow the 300 amps fuses in the cables. It will probably be a good idea, whenever we have low batteries and just starting out to start the engine with the coach batteries not connected, let the idle settle a minute or two, and then connect with setting on low limit, and then go to high limit once the alternators get warm, on the rare occasions we would use the high limit. Very easy to do in practice.

I will say that it was nice to see lower voltages than we had with the internal regulator. It was running 14.2/14.3v from the alternators, which is down .2/.3v from what it was before.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by DCHitt

Roadtrek's Volt-Start is a step in that direction.

Now if I can just hack into my van's Can-Buss maybe I can make mine do that?

Maybe an aftermarket remote start system would be easy to hack into an auto start system...

Might be easier than CAN bus hacking...

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by booster

Just got back from the first driving test of things. ...........................

Temperatures look great.
The spike at initial connection is good to know about. You'll have to let us know if easing into it as you described works well.

Did you get in contact with Balmar?

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Temperatures look great.
The spike at initial connection is good to know about. You'll have to let us know if easing into it as you described works well.

Did you get in contact with Balmar?

After a long drawn out process (they list the tech service hours wrong) I did finally get to talk to someone, although they were not very technical and had to go and try to get information.

He found out there had been a change made and some units got out with the wrong instructions and sent me the right sheet. He did not know why they say you have to use the stator connection, but was going to get with the engineers to find out why.

The glitch is that the new unit has eliminated the ignition input, and only has a "12v" input. He didn't know if this should be switched or not. In my case, the ignition (activate) wire to the alternator is tiny and comes off a low power run side circuit. It wouldn't be able to supply the 6-7 amps the alternator would use. I would have to use full time 12v as that is what is there. The old instructions showed both ignition and 12v connections. As do all their other regulators, which is what these units are supposed to back up.

I sent him another email about that and he will have to go to the engineers for that also. I don't want to get into a situation where there alternator is active all the time, with the possibility of current going to the field alternator.

[gregmchugh]

Not sure of the details but there were several cases where Roadtrek misswired the Balmar to the wrong 12v power line using a hot line instead of an ignition triggered line causing a significant parasitic drain on the chassis battery.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Not sure of the details but there were several cases where Roadtrek misswired the Balmar to the wrong 12v power line using a hot line instead of an ignition triggered line causing a significant parasitic drain on the chassis battery.

That sounds like what could happen here.

[booster]

We just got back from our quick trip of a couple of days. The distance turned out to be a good match for getting information that will be useful.

Ran the batteries down 253ah before leaving (57.5% down)

Left the separator relay off while we drove to vote, so engine was warm, solar was off

Started engine, let idle settle to 557rpm, which is very near the normal 545rpm we usually see hot

Had the limit set to the low setting and turned on the separator. It flashed to 115 amps and then settled down at about 105 amps

When up to speed right after that (2000rpm alternator) and were at 180 amps. By 30 minutes at speed, it was down to 130 amps

It continued to taper to 13 amps at 4 hours when we got to the campsite.

As it turned out, we wound up with shore power, so the Magnum charger was connected and also showed near 13 amps.

After 4.5 hours, the Magnum went to float based on full battery amp acceptance of 2.0 amps.

We learned most of what we will need going forward, and I think all of what we need to be conservatively safe for everything

The low flash current when connecting at low idle and low limit shows that method should work to prevent fuse blowing. Future tests will show just how high the idle can be without issue. It may be fine after a very short warmup time, as we 300 amp fuses, with the low limit.

The tapering of acceptance of the batteries started very early, looking to be going down by about 65% SOC, at 131 amps. We didn't have accurate SOC information as the monitor hadn't been on through a full cycle to reset the reference point and used just the amp-hour counter, which also had not reset to zero.

The 13 amps is probably an OK point to say that you are far enough charged, as the solar can cover that much when you stop, if you have decent sun. If you are going to shore power, it could be much higher, up to 100 amps. I need to do a test to see exactly what SOC 13 amps is, but it should be in the high 90s%.

4.5 hours on the Magnum to totally full is about what would be expected when going to .5%C amps, based on what we have seen in the past, as the total is 8.5 hours for the full charge from 57.5% down. If anything it is a bit faster than on the charger, due to the high charge rate early shortening both the initial recovery and the topping off. Lifeline has said that they like high charge rates for their batteries, with .4C being within the basic charge recommendations. It shows that even if we hit a campsite late in the day, there would be plenty of time for a charge cycle overnight on shore power from this discharge level, or even at 100ah more down. On shore power it would take about 1 hour more time. Even a full charge of 352ah on the shore charger takes only about 10-11 hours, and we usually would have that much time overnight. This makes the occasional required fill charged easily done with shore power.

If we want to get totally full from driving, the hours would be the same as we saw in this test, at 8.5 hours, as the the high amp capacity would not do anything faster than Magnum did, in topping. If we were 100ah more down, driving only, we would get that in about 35 minutes of driving, instead of an hour, so would save a little.

Of big interest is what a typical drive day would do for us. If the 57./5% down is considered typical, which it probably is as we would very rarely need to go more than that, it looks like we would be right on the edge of getting full in a 4 hour drive day, and then turning it over to solar. Drive 8am to 12pm and then solar would need 4.5 hours of good sun, which is possible, but certainly not a sure thing most places. If we are down less, it gets more likely to get totally full. If we do get conditions and get totally full, that is bonus that allows us to skip the weekly shore power if we want to. Usually, once a week we do like the full service campground to do laundry, showers, maybe a good tank flushing, so not a big deal.

All in all, very much what we expected to see.

The absorption lock on for the regulator is absolutely needed, as it goes to float very quickly (probably base on field %, which we have set very low to get the limiting). This is of no concern to us, as we manually control the charge stage while driving, but would not be good for someone who wanted accurate full automatic charging.

The dash mounted ammeter told exactly what we needed, power the coach and power to the batteries, which allows us to see how much the solar would be contributing to the batteries, if it is on. Seeing the battery amps is essential to knowing when the batteries get full so it can be taken to float at that point.

I still need to do a bit of testing to have some amps vs SOC readings, just for reference. I also need to get the alternator temperature sensing fixed so I can see it while the engine is running, and that might require finding a, RTD thermometer instead of the the thermocouples.

Still waiting for a final answer from Balmar on the backup regulator wiring and function. The redesigned unit may not be very well suited for our setup, or for many of their own regulator installs.

So far, quite happy with how it all is working.

[markopolo]

It's great to see real data. It is performing pretty much as you expected.

I'd say it clearly meets the criteria to form the basis of a generator with guaranteed output as opposed to theoretical output. Would it be correct to say you can count on a minimum of around 2,600 watts regardless of temperature and rpm? I'd guess it would be around 3,300 watts max right now because of the operating limits you set for the system. It has the potential of being a 6,000+ watt system so you're not forcing things at all.

With lead acid batteries there's not much any of us can do about the taper. Higher voltage will force more amps through the system but there's a limit to how high you can go and I think you've already explored that a bit and found it doesn't dramatically lessen the time to get to full.

It's pretty clear that you'll be able to get the batteries back to full both easily and on a regular basis. Typically, that is not easy to do with larger well utilized off grid battery banks.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

It's great to see real data. It is performing pretty much as you expected.

I'd say it clearly meets the criteria to form the basis of a generator with guaranteed output as opposed to theoretical output. Would it be correct to say you can count on a minimum of around 2,600 watts regardless of temperature and rpm? I'd guess it would be around 3,300 watts max right now because of the operating limits you set for the system. It has the potential of being a 6,000+ watt system so you're not forcing things at all.

With lead acid batteries there's not much any of us can do about the taper. Higher voltage will force more amps through the system but there's a limit to how high you can go and I think you've already explored that a bit and found it doesn't dramatically lessen the time to get to full.

It's pretty clear that you'll be able to get the batteries back to full both easily and on a regular basis. Typically, that is not easy to do with larger well utilized off grid battery banks.

I think the watts would probably be more like 2500 watts. What we see when we are at 180 amps, which is the target, is that we get .4/.5v of drop in the cable to the batteries. So 180 X 13.9 = 2502. It does this somewhat by choice, as I put the sense wire at the separator and not on the batteries. This was mainly to help the starting battery not see 14.8 or more volts continuously when the voltage went up to compensate for the drop. It also limits watts to the batteries by a little in the time when they would be heating the most.

At least with our Lifelines, it appears that .4C is about the limit due to heating. It could be less than that if it is hot out, or more than that if it is cool. We do see heat from the exhaust, axle, and underbody air, which also adds to it. It appears that staying under 120 degrees F is what is needed, but I am still trying to correlate how much of temp sensor reading is not actual battery temp because the sensor is in the hot air around the battery when driving. I was going to put one of the thermocouples in between the the batteries to see what that would read, but with the thermocouples not working on the alternators that thermometer will probably get replaced with an RTD one, if I can find on that I can put on the dash. I do have a couple of cheapo aquarium thermometers that I was going to try on the original setup, so I may be back to using one of them for the batteries. The good is that the regulator has battery temp compensation, so it will turn itself down if they get too hot. The sensor is on a battery negative terminal.

[booster]

I am still waiting for an answer from Balmar on the new vs old backup regulator. I was digging through the Transpo (who actually makes it) literature and found a place that said another regulator with the same wiring was "field initiated". That would explain the need for a field connection, if true.

It did make me wonder why, if they initiate off the field signal, do they need the 12+ wiring to go through the ignition switch or run output. The first thought was parasitic loss with full time power, so I hooked up the regulator to a battery on the bench, and measured the current to the regulator. It was only .0025 amps. I then also hooked up the field wire to ground to see if it would draw more, and it didn't. Then I also added the stator wire to ground and got no change. That is .06ah per day, which is pretty small and would never kill even our starting battery sitting a week or two in one spot without running. It is also a backup regulator, so it wouldn't even be used on a regular basis, or even, hopefully.

I am inclined to setup the wiring and connectors for the backup using my normal full time 12v line that the Ample runs on, as I just don't see a way that it could be an issue at this point (famous last words).

I will send another email to Baldor, but I haven't gotten any answer to the last two, so I won't hold my breath. Pretty poor customer service, but there seems to be lots of that lately a lot of places.

[booster]

I took a guess and called CDI electronics, which seems to own Baldor now, and got no one that new much of anything, but then finally was able to find number for the main US office of Transpo, who made it according to the sticker on it. They were able to identify the part number and said going full time 12v to it is perfectly fine. That is good, so now I can finish off the wiring to make it an easy plug in if it is ever needed.

This regulator also has a trimmer potentiometer on the back side, so should be adjustable, which might be nice. Baldor still lists it as non adjustable.

[markopolo]

Looks like you had already figured it out but it's still nice to get the confirmation from Transpo

It's useful to where the product originates from also - might help others sometime.

[booster]

I finished the wiring to make the spare regulator easy to put in. Unclip one connector and connect two. They are Delphi weatherproof connectors so easy and just like the OEM type.

In normal running mode there are two connectors on the firewall, one for each alternator. One it 3 wire and is the one I was able to easily add the stator wire to. The single connector in the front of the other two is the power for the spare regulator, which I put on a separate fuse just to keep it totally separated from the main regulator.



To change over, all that is needed is to unplug the one 3 wire plug for the alternator and plug it into the spare regulator connector, and plug the single connector into the regulator. Tie wrap the regulator to something and done.



Hooked up the spare and ran it for a while while taking some alternator temps, and it worked fine, constant 14.1 volts easily did 140 amps at idle with just the 250XP, but it was very cool out, and the regulator would go to full field % with it.

Now all that left is to get the RTD parts and get engine running temps available while driving.

[booster]

Everything I had read about thermocouples seemed to say they were susceptible to RF interference, so that is what I figured I had that was making the thermometer go nuts with engine running, but not when it was off. Just for my own sense of curiosity I decided to make sure it wasn't something else, and disconnected the sensors, which were attached to an alternator case bolt. It worked fine then, with them hanging close to the alternator unattached. I stuck them on temporarily with some double back tape to electrically isolate them, and it still worked fine. It appears that it is probably the ripple on the ground side, that is doing it.

I have some heat conductive, non electrical conducting, mounting adhesive ordered, so hopefully that will work to mount the sensors to the cases. If not, I will have to get some mica or something else like they use on circuit board for the heat sinks to isolate the sensors from the cases.

[booster]

My stuff finally showed up so I could try making electrically isolated, thermally connected thermocouple connectors. I used a #10 wire ring connector with a 5/16" screw size, but then cut it open similar to a spade and squeezed it shut a bit. This allows it to have a bit of wrap around the screw without bending the tangs when tightened like spades often do. If the cutout is just the right size, they will also snap onto the screw and stay in place while you do the initial tightening, which is very good if space in limited. I put shrink tubing on the TC wire to within 1/32" of the weld and lightly crimped it into the connector.

To isolate it, I cut a small strip of mica, like is used under heat sinks, and epoxied it to the connector, right under the weld of the TC.



Then I bent the weld as close to the connector as possible and put on the thermally passing/electrical stopping epoxy to hold it against the mica, which is also electrical stopping to give kind of double protection but still reasonable heat transfer.



To reduce heat loss a bit and protect against corrosion, I covered the whole thing with non-corrosive silicone sealer. I have them mounted to the long case bolts that go from rear to front of the alternator.



The battery temp connection similarly done, but is a full ring terminal on the same negative battery post as the other 3 battery temp sensors. I did finally get a longer, brass, bolt for the connection as I was running out of engagement, though.

The oil temp is just on a similar connector the is tie wrapped to the rubber hose from the engine to the radiator.