Battleborn & Renogy - Obsolete or in a Price War?

[themexicandoctor]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-c6A1THDaeU

$350 unit cost
100amp hours
12 volt nominal
27 cents per watt hour
Plus, plus, plus, plus and plus

New manufacturer offering what appears* to be a quality equivalent, full feature battery, at 50-70% off the retail cost of the two well known players in the market.

*appears, not yet proven longitudinally

If my rig was already set up as a Lithium System (once I had approval that they checked out from the Guru's here), this would be a NO Brainer & would break the stranglehold presently in place.

As it is, I am more than comfortable with my present expensive* AGMs & if anything, only interested in gaming manually the limiting compromises that the manufacturers of the charging components build into their products so that everyone "plays nice ..."

[rowiebowie]

It seems that lithium batteries are getting better and cheaper as a rule.

I believe Battleborn is a quality product, but price pressure is going to force them to lower prices to remain competitive.

Renogy, which I use, just rebrands Chinese products as far as I can tell. And while their prices beat Battleborn, they too need to reduce prices to remain competitive.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

It seems that lithium batteries are getting better and cheaper as a rule.

I believe Battleborn is a quality product, but price pressure is going to force them to lower prices to remain competitive.

Renogy, which I use, just rebrands Chinese products as far as I can tell. And while their prices beat Battleborn, they too need to reduce prices to remain competitive.

Rowie,

If you have Lithium, you know Batteries, what do you think of the product being offered here compared to what you own?

[MobileCabin]

Along the theme of price wars for lithium batteries, found on another forum a discussion on a new package of batteries, inverter/charger and more:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...q3BuR4LTtDs_Fc

One person said the package was cheaper than the batteries if purchased separately.

[booster]

Originally Posted by MobileCabin

Along the theme of price wars for lithium batteries, found on another forum a discussion on a new package of batteries, inverter/charger and more:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...q3BuR4LTtDs_Fc

One person said the package was cheaper than the batteries if purchased separately.

Nothing unusual about a package being less than the individual parts. They do that to get the whole order instead of having you order the individual parts elsewhere. The thing to look at would be the package price vs the individual parts if you bought each part at the best price from any source.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

Rowie,

If you have Lithium, you know Batteries, what do you think of the product being offered here compared to what you own?

I trust Will Prowse's lithium battery reviews and would not hesitate to buy his recommended batteries. The problem is, others watch his reviews and as soon as he makes a video on a product he likes, the prices spike up and they sell out. I've looked up several after watching his videos, and attest this happens quickly.

Lithium Iron Phosphate is becoming accepted as absolutely safe. I see the day fast approaching where lithium batteries become more and more comparable on features (basically a decent BMS with proper temperature sensors) and begin to sell solely on price. Maybe in a couple of years.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by MobileCabin

Along the theme of price wars for lithium batteries, found on another forum a discussion on a new package of batteries, inverter/charger and more:

https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...q3BuR4LTtDs_Fc

One person said the package was cheaper than the batteries if purchased separately.

Good to see Battleborn offering discounts in response to competition. Their products are highly rated and along with Victron offer a top-notch system.

[jakegw2]

I think BattleBorn is wildly overpriced for the market at this point. They have a quality product, not absolute top-end like Lithionics, but upper middle. I suspect they have done very well as plunging component prices have allowed them to have a fat margin for the past two years.

This is never a situation that lasts long, especially since they are bringing nothing to the table apart from assembly, marketing, QA, and customer service. All of these value-adds have a low barrier to entry and I'm not surprised to see companies in China go after their market with effective products.

I would still pay a modest premium for a BB product for the assurance that their reputation and track record provide. They operative word there is "modest" however, and 50%+ certainly doesn't meet my definition.

They could also maintain market share by innovating on features. Their batteries with internal heaters is a good start, but took at least a year too long to come to market. They seem to want to passively wait until someone else is producing a quality component or solution and then just copy what they did rather then developing new solutions themselves. Not a recipe for maintaining margin in this business.

I'd like to see more innovation around package size. The SOK product is really interesting because it has 2x the normal capacity and is shaped to fit a group 27 sized space as long as it has a few extra inches of height available. This is the type of innovation that adds real value to the end user.

[MsNomer]

We were tickled pink to be able to squeeze 300Ah SOK into the space of 200Ah AGM.

[booster]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

I trust Will Prowse's lithium battery reviews and would not hesitate to buy his recommended batteries. The problem is, others watch his reviews and as soon as he makes a video on a product he likes, the prices spike up and they sell out. I've looked up several after watching his videos, and attest this happens quickly.

Lithium Iron Phosphate is becoming accepted as absolutely safe. I see the day fast approaching where lithium batteries become more and more comparable on features (basically a decent BMS with proper temperature sensors) and begin to sell solely on price. Maybe in a couple of years.

Being a bit of a skeptic, I still take Prowe's reviews with a grain of salt as he certainly isn't doing the reviews for fun. He is making money off them somehow and does use product placement for the camera all the time. Better than many, but IMO not gospel. IIRC before he was doing batteries he was pushing health food or vitamin type stuff so has a history, I think.


I agree that we will see more features in the lower price areas, but the question will remain about quality or corner cutting for me, as that is very common when products start to reach the "commodity" pricing and availability. Just with the current AGM versions we will likely see some very low priced, but not so great batteries, a level that might match or get close to the price with better batteries, and some known and consistently high quality, more cost, premium ones. Think Exide, Johnson Controls, East Penn, Trojan in wet cells, for instance, in that order of increasing quality.

[themexicandoctor]

I agree with all of the points here.

Do know, only from some of the inside guys I talk to, Mr Prowse sometimes leaves out all the details in order to promote his channel but I understand.

Like Rowie I went online to the comments section & was educated as to;

1. His ability to increases prices & lower supply with his videos

2. That there are much better options out there if you have the skill set to build your own packs

3. Issues of Quality Continuity, a usable Guarantee & Customer Service presently are not worth the initial savings

[booster]

Will Prowse appears to have a website where he is selling a lot of solar and lithium products that seem to be ones he has reviewed.


https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/li...batteries.html

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by booster

Will Prowse appears to have a website where he is selling a lot of solar and lithium products that seem to be ones he has reviewed.


https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/li...batteries.html

Thank you Booster - I was hoping for a more balanced opinion but already in the comments section he & others are far less enthusiastic weeks later.

[woodbri]

Hi,

I have Lion Energy Batteries that I got from Costco for $700 for 2 105AH batteries. This puts them at the $350 for 105AH which is very good for a high quality battery. In general, I would be careful of buying off brand lithium batteries using Chinese manufactured cells.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by woodbri

Hi,

I have Lion Energy Batteries that I got from Costco for $700 for 2 105AH batteries. This puts them at the $350 for 105AH which is very good for a high quality battery. In general, I would be careful of buying off brand lithium batteries using Chinese manufactured cells.

And where did your cells come from?

And $350 each? Wow.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

And where did your cells come from?

And $350 each? Wow.

Yeah, and plus that Costco appears to be on a cost saving kick with their wet cells (many are Exide now and not Johnson Controls, which is also happening to the Interstate store batteries, it appears) would make me wonder about what batteries they are. If they were on a final closeout, the original price might indicate a higher quality line.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

Yeah, and plus that Costco appears to be on a cost saving kick with their wet cells (many are Exide now and not Johnson Controls, which is also happening to the Interstate store batteries, it appears) would make me wonder about what batteries they are. If they were on a final closeout, the original price might indicate a higher quality line.

booster I did not mean to disparage the batteries in terms of price. They appear to be a good deal for the price. Not sure, seems one of the b manufacturers are using the same battery.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

booster I did not mean to disparage the batteries in terms of price. They appear to be a good deal for the price. Not sure, seems one of the b manufacturers are using the same battery.

I agree, at that price point you would expect a shooting match on a lot of things about them, but bang for buck is not one of them. Costco loves to buy mass quantities of over stocked items the vendors produce and have not been able to sell quickly enough and those vendors can be just about any of them out there from unheard of brands to well known ones or even private label stuff made for someone else that gets a Costco sticker over the original. I don't recall what the product was, but I actually saw that happen at someplace. It may have been at Advance auto or some other parts place that you could see a competitors label where the Advance on it had peeled back some.

[woodbri]

Originally Posted by Bud

And where did your cells come from?

And $350 each? Wow.

Bud,

They are likely from China also but my understanding is after manufacturing the cells tested and sorted based on a bunch of criteria and the better companies get the better cells. Look at the warranties offered. BB, Lion and some others offer 10 yr warranty.

I put 4 LE batteries in my Roadtrek and replaced all the electronics with Victron components which has been awesome. Basically I turned it on in May after I did the install and have not had to think about it since. It just works! And I have monitoring that tells me everything I could want to know about the system.

[dmb496]

Originally Posted by woodbri

Hi,

I have Lion Energy Batteries that I got from Costco for $700 for 2 105AH batteries. This puts them at the $350 for 105AH which is very good for a high quality battery. In general, I would be careful of buying off brand lithium batteries using Chinese manufactured cells.

You must have found an exclusive sale
because...
As I type this response, Costco has the Lion Energy 105ah batteries on SALE @ $1399 for a PAIR of batteries. I have never seen a lower price for a pair of UT1300 batteries. I have 12 of them.