Aktiv and Roadtrek Ecotrek are unsafe

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Do you have pictures of these marked with arrows connections?

I just noticed your bonding arrow. The 6-gauge bonding wire was terminated with a 1/4" lug (good). It was held to the pictured non-conductive surface (bad) with a 8-23 screw (not good).

[gerrym51]

I will say this-having bought a roadtrek many things in the manuals are 'incorrect'. I hesitate to say outright lies

[booster]

A part number search brought up this document, which seems to indicate the unit has CE approval.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lw20...nt=firefox-b-1

If so, there should be a report available on the testing, or at least information if you contact them.

The last I dealt with them, CE and UL had similar rules and would have looked at all wire sizing.

The document lists lots of models of both 12/24v and 120/240v, and some are likely to be permanent mount and some mobile. This could make the unit in question a mess up if the manufacturer uses smaller wire size for the 240v units which would have 1/2 the amperage on the input side. If there are no relays to do the switching the manual talks about, it is also possible that there is no auto bonding of ground and neutral. If that is the case, the unit could also have been made to be a stationery unit, which would not be bonded.

I hate to be conspiratorial, but I wonder if Roadtrek got a good deal on stationery units, which would be cheaper anyway with no bonding controls, and tried to take care of it by using the mystery wire from the case to neutral in the main box?

If the OP can get some information from CE and determine if the unit matches what was tested, or not, it could go a long ways to having enough clout to be able to get some attention.

Does the unit in question carry a CE or UL listing?

on edit

CE Marking – U.S. Gov’t Contacts

Bob Straetz

European Union (EU) Specialist
Office of European Union and Regional Affairs
International Trade Administration
Department of Commerce

Phone: 202-482-4496
Fax: 202-482-2897

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

CE Marking – U.S. Gov’t Contacts

Bob Straetz

European Union (EU) Specialist
Office of European Union and Regional Affairs
International Trade Administration
Department of Commerce

Phone: 202-482-4496
Fax: 202-482-2897

Bob is a non technical Commerce representative who promotes EU trade. I have a few .GOV leads but its all new to them so it will take time. I've got time for safety. I'm against excess government regulation but some is needed when the RV industry is not being responsible. This group is smart but has no power to affect Hymer/Roadtrek. Time to head to Washington. Signing off. Remember hymer.whistle.blower@gmail.com

[Phoebe3]

Where is Ralph Nader when you need him...sigh.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

The previous safety thread was five pages of great discussion. That thread presented numerous issues present in laymen's terms. This group knows electricity so we need a schematic. I've update the webpage with the attached figure showing the exact hardwired ground path from the campsite (left) to the Aktiv's cabin receptacle (right). There are no relays or other connections that improve the shore power safety return. Can we agree that the 18 gauge wire in the center is wrong? Do we agree that under the right shore power conditions the 18 gauge could fuse living the Aktiv live?


https://sites.google.com/view/shoot-...afe?authuser=0

I also added a picture of the plumbing that shows why the boiler could explode.

******Quick update ******
Intertek's VP has three times stated that all ground wires in hymer's nverter's bill of materials are to be 10 guage. Not 18 guage as found in the new inverter. Intertek's (i.e., the for profit equivalent of UL) first thought is the inverter was altered after manufacture (ha ha). They are investigating but won't report findings. I suggest the a three-month old inverter in a 2018 Hymer suffers from fraud or black market purchasing.

[booster]

Was the BOM for the Roadtrek version? Private label stuff can get really weird when dealing with some of the Asian companies. Has it ever been determined if the unit has the autobonding of neutral and ground like the instructions say it does? That could be another "cost reduction" done to get the price down for Roadtrek.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

Was the BOM for the Roadtrek version? Private label stuff can get really weird when dealing with some of the Asian companies. Has it ever been determined if the unit has the autobonding of neutral and ground like the instructions say it does? That could be another "cost reduction" done to get the price down for Roadtrek.

The webpage has been updated with label pictures and more. https://sites.google.com/view/shoot-...afe?authuser=4


I'll let you judge if MircoGreen is off-brand; its what Hymer installs. The autobonding is a dead issue in my mind since the through ground is hard wired and never changes.

The attached picture came from another RoadTrek Inverter today. I see the input pwr (black far rt) was pulling lots of shore power.. Neutral on the output (white fourth from rt) to the circuit breaker box was too and gave out first. I wish we had a full set of label pictures since this looks like another non-conforming ITL-mark candidate.
There are lots of possible failure scenarios. One is an internal inverter short to chassis. The internal bond back to campground ground was poor so the power went down external 6 gauge bond wire, over to circuit breaker box and back up the neutral. Good opportunity for electrocution.

There is NO fuse or breaker on the path I described earlier. The RV was likely plugged into 30 amp shore power. Crazy dangerous.

BTW: note that Roadtrek is using fine stranded wire in a set screw terminal (pictured). That terminal always breaks fine strands.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

……………… The autobonding is a dead issue in my mind since the through ground is hard wired and never changes. ……………………..

Do you have 2 bond locations with shore power?

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Do you have 2 bond locations with shore power?

Please look at figure 2 at
https://sites.google.com/view/shoot-the-messenger/roadtrek-and-hymerrvs-safe?authuser=4

That diagram shows every bond or attempted bond point.

The news is that intertek said the inverter should be built with 10 guage wire. My OEM inverter is built with 18 guage wire. Who and how did that? Where is Hymer
buying inverters?

[GeorgeRa]

I have some difficulties deciphering your drawing for bonds, bond is a connection between ground and neutral and I only see ground circuit side on your drawing. Could be my grey hair.

[booster]

There has been a lot of discussion over the years as to whether or not there is a need for a breaker either internally in the battery charger, or as a standalone in the input line if the charger is rated for 30 amps.. While having one either place would never be a bad thing, IMO, the other line of thought is that you have 30 amp capable input wiring and will be connected to a 30 amp source that is protected at that level. Smaller chargers are run through the fuse panel first to protect them.

I would not call the neutral to ground bonding dead as they could be autobonding to the chassis of the inverter to do it. Not the right way to do it, but possible.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I have some difficulties deciphering your drawing for bonds, bond is a connection between ground and neutral and I only see ground circuit side on your drawing. Could be my grey hair.

I don't see any neutral to ground bonding in the diagram, as only the ground buss bar is connected to the box and thus van chassis.

[markopolo]

Re: Standards - labels / marks

It is my understanding that the CE label is not recognized in Canada and I'd assume that it is not recognized in the US (correct me if I'm wrong).
The CE label is a manufacturer self-declaration of conformity to a directive. (a directive is not a standard)

When I'm looking to see if a product meets a standard then I expect to see a UL, ULc, ETL, CSA, TUV (& some others) label.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

There has been a lot of discussion over the years as to whether or not there is a need for a breaker either internally in the battery charger, or as a standalone in the input line if the charger is rated for 30 amps.. While having one either place would never be a bad thing, IMO, the other line of thought is that you have 30 amp capable input wiring and will be connected to a 30 amp source that is protected at that level. Smaller chargers are run through the fuse panel first to protect them.

I would not call the neutral to ground bonding dead as they could be autobonding to the chassis of the inverter to do it. Not the right way to do it, but possible.

Autobonding is a good addition to a dual system; my warning is safety rather than ground loops. I believe that neutral and ground are automatically additionally connected when the box switches from sourcing shore power to to sourcing inverted battery power. There is never a release any shore bond so the ground topology stays as shown in the diagram. The addition of neutral in parrallel to ground after the inverter doesn't help the solo 18 gauge ground or its poor bonding.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

Please look at figure 2 at
https://sites.google.com/view/shoot-...afe?authuser=4

That diagram shows every bond or attempted bond point.

The news is that intertek said the inverter should be built with 10 guage wire. My OEM inverter is built with 18 guage wire. Who and how did that? Where is Hymer
buying inverters?

My assumption would be that the 18 gauge jumper wire was added by the inverter installer. That is what the linked to manual suggests: "if you want to maintain a through earth simply connect the input earth to the output earth"

The Samlex inverter/charger that I use states in the manual that the AC input grounding terminals and AC output grounding terminals are internally bonded to the metal chassis of the inverter. The added jumper might help accomplish something similar assuming that either the AC input ground or AC output ground is bonded to the inverter chassis internally in the microgreen inverter.

A 10ga jumper would seem more appropriate than 18ga.

[markopolo]

The stranded wire used with screw terminals could be problematic.

It would be a good idea to use crimp on ends on stranded wire.

crimp on end for stranded wire.JPG

Samlex supplied a bunch of those with the inverter/charger.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

The stranded wire used with screw terminals could be problematic.

It would be a good idea to use crimp on ends on stranded wire.

Attachment 5582

Samlex supplied a bunch of those with the inverter/charger.

Those are nice, I wish more companies provided them. We have always soldered them in critical spots, but that is not as good as a crimp in most cases, and the big cables are really hard to solder without destroying the jacket.

The actual issue is only if the setscrew pushes directly on the wire. If there is flat spingy piece that the screw pushes on and it pushes on the wire, you actually want to keep the strands loose so they flatten out for good contact.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by markopolo

My assumption would be that the 18 gauge jumper wire was added by the inverter installer. That is what the linked to manual suggests: "if you want to maintain a through earth simply connect the input earth to the output earth"

The Samlex inverter/charger that I use states in the manual that the AC input grounding terminals and AC output grounding terminals are internally bonded to the metal chassis of the inverter. The added jumper might help accomplish something similar assuming that either the AC input ground or AC output ground is bonded to the inverter chassis internally in the microgreen inverter.

A 10ga jumper would seem more appropriate than 18ga.

The manual is wrong, the wire is internal and is a direct connection (no relay). Intertek (ITL-Mark) confirmed the internal wire on the approved bill of materials is 10 gauge. How many did Hymer and roadtrek ship with 18 guage? How did the manufactured unit get passed Intertek?

This was just and update on the investigatation. Bye

[markopolo]

This link might help you understand how it got an ETL Listed Mark: https://ramuk.intertekconnect.com/We...c?OpenDocument


sample tested.JPG