A different lithium battery heater setup

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by avanti

To be concrete, here is the custom control panel that I designed and GWV build for us:
Attachment 3165
The Paneltronics console is ideal, at least for us. I gave the selection of circuit grouping a lot of though. It provides direct control of ALL DC loads (media, telecom, fridge, propane solenoid etc), and you can see at a glance what is on and what is off (there are lights). When all the switches are off, there are NO parasitic loads except for the gas detectors. I disagree that this is only good for geeks. In my experience it is just the opposite. In our old van, DW was constantly trying to memorize the sequence of obscure menu commands to turn the inverter (for example) on or off. Now, she happily just flips a clearly-labeled switch. Yes, DavyDD can afford to leave his inverter on 24/7, but for most of us, the ability to directly monitor and control various loads has a lot of value.

As for thermal protection, etc.: I totally want those things to be automated, and a lot of other stuff, too. I just don't want one massive centralized control system. My reasons involve both robustness and usability.

Very nice, saw something similar in a video of the Earth Cruiser.

I will stand by my belief that this is great for many buyers but that there are many more owners, of Roadtreks at least, who would simply be ignoring all this or generally confused at best. Just follow some of the day to day issues people need help with on the various Roadtrek groups. Many owners want to simply use the van with all this new technology without having to learn much about how it works or what needs to be done to make it work. I expect the owners who are not visible here in the groups are mostly feeling the same. If Roadtrek can manage to get it all working without requiring much user interaction they will be happy campers.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

If Roadtrek can manage to get it all working without requiring much user interaction they will be happy campers.

I guess...
I'll look for that right after I find a "home theatre" setup that any sane person would want to use.

[gregmchugh]

Point take, I have doubts that they will get there and they will need to provide more customer support resources to help customers cope with the new complexity. They are out doing dealer training and hopefully will be providing some good instruction materials to customers. Right now only Roadtrek and a few dealers have the answers.

[Nancy Kay]

Fortunately, Roadtrek Service has apparently gotten their second wind and has returned to their former good level of customer service. They are returning calls and answering emails promptly. They have answered any operational questions I have had about my RT with Ecotrek/Voltstart/underhood generator and solar. All systems are performing well, in the winter, in Colorado.

[Davydd]

Turning the inverter on and off in an Advanced RV is as simple as tapping a touch screen on the Silverleaf. If one wants manual control the Outback control panel is just a flip up the cabinet door away.

Having the inverter on 24/7 is a convenience using about 70ah per day. Running all 120v systems 24/7 makes boondocking feel like you plugged into shore power. It is a no-brainer use of your B. If I wanted to conserve I could shut it off at will. With 800ah of battery it is not necessary. Our longest stint this trip was 4 nights in Death Valley. No problem.

If you guys want details about ARV simply call them or attend their Advanced Fest in May. They don't keep any secrets. They just execute so fast their existing customers develop lust for the new advances. But they treat their customers well. I stopped in last October since it was convenient to do so coming back from our east coast trip that they covered 18 separate items including numerous complimentary upgrades to bring our B up to current thinking on their part after just 9 months. One was reprogramming charging from floating at 99% to charge to 99% and then let it drop to 90 before charging again. They reprogrammed the battery heater control so I could see a flame symbol when the heaters were actually on. That is enlightening since I could see the batteries rarely needed heat until the air temperature dropped below 20 degrees.

Another question about high end battery temperatures. We have been parked in a Salton Sea CG for 24 hours. The outside temperature is 84. The battery pack is at 75 at noon.

I'm estimating our solar charging with 420 watts is charging at about 10-12 amps under full sun at noon. Flat panels on a roof are next to worthless in the winter with low sun angles. Of course I absolutely would never be here in the summer. If I ever built again I would use no or less solar or I would look into a roof articulated system that could rotate and tilt the panel to track the sun. I'm almost always under trees in Minnesota or the mountains. I have no interest in those space wasting suitcase panels in a B. I saw a lot of those in use in Death Valley.

[gregmchugh]

Davydd, very good. Solar panels are a waste for us too, we always pick the spots in the shade under the trees. Saw a campground host at 12 Mile Beach at Pictured Rocks in the UP with portable solar at the end of a long cable to reach some sun past the trees along the shore. Not worth it to me to do that.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Davydd

...
I'm estimating our solar charging with 420 watts is charging at about 10-12 amps under full sun at noon. Flat panels on a roof are next to worthless in the winter with low sun angles. Of course I absolutely would never be here in the summer. If I ever built again I would use no or less solar or I would look into a roof articulated system that could rotate and tilt the panel to track the sun. I'm almost always under trees in Minnesota or the mountains. I have no interest in those space wasting suitcase panels in a B. I saw a lot of those in use in Death Valley.

Thanks for the update on ARV's sophisticated electrical system. Curious to see that you are not getting more than 12 amps with your 420 watts solar panels. Is it because your batteries were full most of the time and the solar controller was lowering the output according to the SOC?

I tested our 380W solar system once at noon in full July sun with my trimetric. It was sending around 10 amps. After using intentionnaly the microwave for a couple of minutes, the system registered immediately an 18 amp charge, as if the solar controller was limiting the current even if the voltage was at 14.6. 18 amps was the peak charge for solar I registered last summer (tested with all the loads at off).

I agree solar is not always the ideal solution to recharge, although it helped us maintain our 190 Ah battery bank recharged most of the time. I find solar is very helpful maintaining our batteries when the coach is parked in a sunny spot for extended periods. Always amazed to see that the batteries got charged during our outings, even with our 2 fridges working.

I guess when your battery bank is big (400 Ah and more) and your consumption is high, the max solar output alone of 400W (for a B) is not enough, apart maybe from extreme solution like the Womp (see photo) To be self-sufficient boodocking, you then unfortunately have to burn more fuel driving and using the second alternator, or using a generator.

The second alternator combined with a big battery capacity seems to be the solution, albeit a very expensive one, for being self-sufficient when your energy needs are more important and you don't want to worry about being in a sunny spot all the time. But reading all the blogs, not a lot of lithium systems seem to be trouble free and efficient.

ARV had the opportunity to take the time to develop efficient high-end and expensive systems that seem to be working very well for the small number of happy customers they have. Curious to know how many ARV coaches were built, equipped with Lithium?

Looking forward to see all the others high volume RV manufacturers who are experimenting with lithium to have their effort rewarded. Although many seemed to have rushed to offer systems without taking the time to throughly test them, at least they are trying. We will all benefit from this trial and error developpement. The innovation in the RV industry is not generated from serious R&D. It doesn't have the funding. It always relied on early adopters to test their makeshift systems in real-life situation. And that's what makes it adventurous and fun!
Wouldn't it be dull if we all had the exact same ultra efficient energy system in our coaches? Enjoying all your intense discussions!


The Womp extreme solar canopy!
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4522356&type=3





.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

The second alternator combined with a big battery capacity seems to be the solution, albeit a very expensive one

Actually, such systems are not all that expensive in the grand order of things. I added a 270amp second alternator and upgraded my AGM batteries from 220 to 440 ah. As a DIY install, the entire cost was well under $3,000. This is roughly the same cost as a small Onan propane genset, and much cheaper than an equivalent diesel unit.

I am looking forward to upgrading to lithium when these batteries are spent. Should be duck soup by then. I do not at all regret staying with AGM for now.

[mikes47]

Quote: Curious to know how many ARV coaches were built, equipped with Lithium?
==============================
GeorgeB: I would speculate that every ARV delivered since the late fall of 2014 has been equipped with the Lithium batteries in with 400, 600 or 800 AH capacity. Womp may have been even more than 800. ARV is working on installing 1200 AH capacity but I'm not sure whether that configuration is in a production unit just yet. (Although I saw a posting from a client whose ARV is so configured). I also know that some of the early ARV coaches have been retro-fitted to the Lithium configurations, but I don't know what AH capacities were retrofitted.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by mikes47

Quote: Curious to know how many ARV coaches were built, equipped with Lithium?
==============================
GeorgeB: I would speculate that every ARV delivered since the late fall of 2014 has been equipped with the Lithium batteries in with 400, 600 or 800 AH capacity. Womp may have been even more than 800. ARV is working on installing 1200 AH capacity but I'm not sure whether that configuration is in a production unit just yet. (Although I saw a posting from a client whose ARV is so configured). I also know that some of the early ARV coaches have been retro-fitted to the Lithium configurations, but I don't know what AH capacities were retrofitted.

Thanks for the info mikes47. And your guess to how many ARVs are on the road with Lithium?

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by avanti

Actually, such systems are not all that expensive in the grand order of things. I added a 270amp second alternator and upgraded my AGM batteries from 220 to 440 ah. As a DIY install, the entire cost was well under $3,000. This is roughly the same cost as a small Onan propane genset, and much cheaper than an equivalent diesel unit.

I am looking forward to upgrading to lithium when these batteries are spent. Should be duck soup by then. I do not at all regret staying with AGM for now.

Suprisingly low, you're right! But the DIY part done by a manufacturer with the markup and warranty provisions would more than double that amount easily I guess?

Going Lithium is another story, I agree . I know a manufacturer who tested lately a custom Lithium system for one customer and the result didn't convince them yet to offer it as an option in their regular builds. It was much too expensive for the actual benefits.

[mikes47]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

Thanks for the info mikes47. And your guess to how many ARVs are on the road with Lithium?

Maybe somewhere in the 30's??? I understand that the ARV lead time has been reduced from 17 months to more like 12. And it looks like the queue keeps growing.

[gregmchugh]

The thing that continues to surprise me is how some systems seem to be put together without much analysis of what the requirements will be for energy storage in the batteries and battery charging capabilities from the solar and generator. If the system doesn't have the power they need without running the generator then they seem to arbitrarily start adding more batteries or more solar without doing any analysis of what they really need to address the problem. There are plenty of good descriptions of how to do an energy analysis and design a balanced system to meet their needs but some people don't seem to be aware of how to do it and throw a system together or buy a system from one of the less capable solar suppliers who won't do the analysis either. They never seem to make the best upgrade choices but continue throwing money at it...

If you do a good analysis including battery options (lead acid vs lithium) there really should no surprises when you put it together. It is not really rocket science...

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by mikes47

Maybe somewhere in the 30's??? I understand that the ARV lead time has been reduced from 17 months to more like 12. And it looks like the queue keeps growing.

OK, that is very small. Gives them time to do quality work!
Safari Condo's production is also small for Bs, given that they are also building their very popular Alto trailers. Their wait time was also in the 16 months reduced to 12 by hiring workforce and new CNC tooling.

[Davydd]

Keep in mind 800ah of lithium ion batteries delivers the comparative equivalent of 13 100ah AGM car type batteries which I think if you calculate the size and weight would be impossible in a Class B.

My goal was 24/7 all the time 120v electrical use without ever having to plug in with the exception of air conditioning for any appreciable length of time. You can't install enough solar to replenish that kind of operation. The second alternator is the single best thing you can do. Tapping diesel for heat and hot water and eliminating propane is another big plus. If I chose to husband my energy use the way I had to with my two previous traditional Class Bs I know I could sit in the Quartzsite desert for more than a week straight without moving or running my engine. There is a fat chance that will ever happen. I exhaust my interest at a site in two to three nights max and most likely drive someplace and charge batteries during that stay. My longer stays have been at rallies and they always pick plug in sites for those.

Seriously it is not difficult to figure out and I am no geek. I do however think 200ah of lithium ion is a waste of money because I doubt one could achieve a 24/7 no-brainer operation as I described and adding two AGM batteries to protect 200ah of lithium ion is crazy.

We peaked out today with battery temperatures matching today's high of 84. As soon as the sun set the temperatures in the desert drop dramatically and will be about 50 in the morning. The batteries lag but they will drop. With short days in the winter high battery temperatures should not be an issue. Thus, unlike a Tesla I cannot envision needing a cooling system for batteries if living in the north as I do.

[gregmchugh]

Davydd, Not sure where you got the info that there were two AGMs to protect a single 200 amp hour Ecotrek module.

So far we have seen they are using a single 12 volt AGM (smaller than the standard 185 amp hour Zion 12 volt AGM) for the Zion 400 amp hour systems and on the Sprinters with the 800 amp hour systems (four Ecotrek modules) they seem to be carrying over the standard 2 AGMs under the hood. Just to keep the info current as best I know it.

Some owners got a free Ecotrek module if they bought a van off the dealer lot so those vans may have an Ecotrek 200 added to a van that was already configured with the standard 2 AGMs.

I agree that buying a 200 amp hour Ecotrek system instead of a 400 amp hour seems a little bit of a waste of potential capability but it is about twice the useful capacity of the standard 2 AGM system and it gets up to full charge faster so it does provide benefits for those who are only going to do minimal boondocking.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Davydd

...If I chose to husband my energy use the way I had to with my two previous traditional Class Bs I know I could sit in the Quartzsite desert for more than a week straight without moving or running my engine. There is a fat chance that will ever happen. I exhaust my interest at a site in two to three nights max and most likely drive someplace and charge batteries during that stay. My longer stays have been at rallies and they always pick plug in sites for those. ...

I guess, the more you have, the more you spend. I'm surprised that "normal usage", when you don't worry about saving energy, doesn't give you more autonomy.

Is it the fact that going 110V 24/7 facilitates the use of small appliances that add up very quickly (and adding 70 A/h for running the inverter)? If you reproduce more and more the feeling of being in a home, I guess you end up spending as much energy.

What would be the solution to allow you more time without moving, apart from restraining your usage?

What is your main energy drain? The induction stove?
A diesel stove, like they have in boats or expedition vehicles, would solve that. I haven't read anything convincing about them. Some used to have a problem of emitting smelly diesel fumes outside and didn't work well at high altitudes.


Wallas ceramic diesel stove for boats




.

[gregmchugh]

If I was going to spend $200,000 on a vehicle for long term travel and boondocking away from people, it would be a little more rugged and full 4 season and made in Bend Oregon but likely not something for everyone's taste. Still only 22 feet long and not very wide but a little taller and a little boxier. Diesel for heat, hot water, and the cooktop. Built like a high quality boat not like an RV.

Great video on the EarthCruiser | Earth Cruiser

[Davydd]

George, We have electric induction and microwave/convection. I would not want a diesel cooktop. We normally do all our cooking outdoors on the portable induction cooktop. I made my hot stew last week in a 14 qt. Dutch oven over charcoals and I think we got about four meals out of it with subsequent reheats on the induction burner. Induction cooktops are precise and fast especially when cooking at 200 feet below sea level we found.

The whole point of my comments were with 800ah of lithium ion the use of your B is totally transparent and non worry electrically while boondocking same as being on shore power. We were on shore power 19 times out of 152 days last year. It give you no compromise freedom. We don't have to worry about how much something uses.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

If I was going to spend $200,000 on a vehicle for long term travel and boondocking away from people, it would be a little more rugged and full 4 season and made in Bend Oregon but likely not something for everyone's taste. Still only 22 feet long and not very wide but a little taller and a little boxier. Diesel for heat, hot water, and the cooktop. Built like a high quality boat not like an RV.

Great video on the EarthCruiser | Earth Cruiser

Yes, the Earthcruiser is a cool "truck"! The FX electrical runs out a small 270 Ah AGM battery bank. No lithiums options. Solar maxes out at 375W. Also available with a "very efficient" 12 v air conditioner! It's all a question of usage.

Do you know if diesel cooktops are worth considering if going without propane?