2007 190P lithium upgrade

[Treker20]

Originally Posted by booster

If you intend to use the B to B in that size forever and not ever and batteries and charge rate, yes, you can use that 65 amps. Anything you use in the van at the same time as charging would come off of the 40 amps of charging of course unless you separated load and charge which I don't think you intend to do. Are you looking to use your original engine to coach wiring from the front of the van to rear? If so, and the van came with a Tripplite, it would be a single #4 cable and have and 80 amp breakers (really a twin 40 on each end). If you remove the separator in the front be sure not to bypass the breaker on the coach charging cable.


On the 10 minutes of run on the microwave, you could use the shorter time, but also remember you may have other loads on a the same time so your consumption will probably be higher than the micro load to some extent, and you may also want to run something that would run longer or in combination with the micro. The cable from the batteries to the inverter is a probably a #2 battery cable if it wired like out 07 190 was. Going bigger on that cable would not be too bad if you get the extra flexible, fine strand cable, which is much easier to run in those circumstances as coming up through the floor. You would need to fuse that line at the battery at whatever the max current continuously would be for the cable as shorts don't happen all at once sometimes and could go a longer time.



The instructions say 2/0 for the inverter wiring because that would be what the max input of the inverter would be at full load run continuously and really isn't a bad idea to run a cable that is capable of that much input as the output AC wiring can accept 30 amps of 110v power which way more than the capacity of the 2000 what inverter at 3600 watts.

Thanks Booster, that all makes sense. I would not be concerned about running other loads along with the micro wave. Maybe a phone or computer charger, but that draw should be minimal, though i will have to check the computer. That Certainly solve a lot of headaches if i can either stay with the same wiring. Also i think the 2/0 would be doable, i would go with welding cable for the flexibility. The other issue with the 2/0 though is opening the battery slide outs. That might difficult. I was thinking about running the 2/0 very close the the battery cabinet, installing a fuse then using a smaller jumper to the battery. Although as I say that a lot of bells are going off in my head. LOL.

if I went with the smaller cable i could also decrease the fuse size unless there is a surge when the microwave started that i have to take into account.

I am also thinking about going with the .Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30A Non-Isolated DC-DC Charger if it will work with the system. It is smaller and I could mount it where the current isolator is on the fire wall. I was planning on going withe the renogy 40A DC/DC, Will a 30A be enough? Do you have idea what the charging amp/s are now through the isolator ?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Treker20

Thanks Booster, that all makes sense. I would not be concerned about running other loads along with the micro wave. Maybe a phone or computer charger, but that draw should be minimal, though i will have to check the computer. That Certainly solve a lot of headaches if i can either stay with the same wiring. Also i think the 2/0 would be doable, i would go with welding cable for the flexibility. The other issue with the 2/0 though is opening the battery slide outs. That might difficult. I was thinking about running the 2/0 very close the the battery cabinet, installing a fuse then using a smaller jumper to the battery. Although as I say that a lot of bells are going off in my head. LOL.

if I went with the smaller cable i could also decrease the fuse size unless there is a surge when the microwave started that i have to take into account.

I am also thinking about going with the .Victron Energy Orion-Tr Smart 12/12-30A Non-Isolated DC-DC Charger if it will work with the system. It is smaller and I could mount it where the current isolator is on the fire wall. I was planning on going withe the renogy 40A DC/DC, Will a 30A be enough? Do you have idea what the charging amp/s are now through the isolator ?

Do you have the two battery setup now with them for and aft of the psg side wheel. That complicates the wiring unless you get the new batteries into just the front bin. I think I would just ditch the troublesome slides and tie the batteries down in the bin. They shouldn't need maintenance and you should be able to reach and take off the cables easily. The lithium will be a lot lighter than lead acid.


Can the Victron handle under hood temps? That might be an issue.


The separator will handle way more than the wiring will, so the 80 amp breakers will control the max current to the coach.


With 30 amps, or even 40, you are looking at fairly long drive times to replenish deeply discharged batteries so that would be the major concern.

[Treker20]

Originally Posted by booster

Do you have the two battery setup now with them for and aft of the psg side wheel. That complicates the wiring unless you get the new batteries into just the front bin. I think I would just ditch the troublesome slides and tie the batteries down in the bin. They shouldn't need maintenance and you should be able to reach and take off the cables easily. The lithium will be a lot lighter than lead acid.


Can the Victron handle under hood temps? That might be an issue.


The separator will handle way more than the wiring will, so the 80 amp breakers will control the max current to the coach.


With 30 amps, or even 40, you are looking at fairly long drive times to replenish deeply discharged batteries so that would be the major concern.

ew

Yes, my 2 batteries are on with side of the rear wheel, but both will not fit in one bin. I could leave the slide outs intact and then disconnect batteries before i slide them out if need to remove them. good idea thanks.

I will have to look into the temps for the victron. I read over the manual but I didn't see anything about ambient temps other then say it puts off a lot of heat than not to mount it near anything flammable. I will have call on that.

As far as long drive times, I have that issue with my lead acids, and since the lithiums charge faster, that may not be an issue. I have been talking to Rowie Bowie about that, since he has the 40 A renogy.

Thanks for all the info, every one here is making this install much easier that I thought it was going to be. BUT and that is a big but, thinking about having to do it and doing it are 2 completely different things. LOL

[booster]

Originally Posted by Treker20

ew

Yes, my 2 batteries are on with side of the rear wheel, but both will not fit in one bin. I could leave the slide outs intact and then disconnect batteries before i slide them out if need to remove them. good idea thanks.

I will have to look into the temps for the victron. I read over the manual but I didn't see anything about ambient temps other then say it puts off a lot of heat than not to mount it near anything flammable. I will have call on that.

As far as long drive times, I have that issue with my lead acids, and since the lithiums charge faster, that may not be an issue. I have been talking to Rowie Bowie about that, since he has the 40 A renogy.

Thanks for all the info, every one here is making this install much easier that I thought it was going to be. BUT and that is a big but, thinking about having to do it and doing it are 2 completely different things. LOL

Most AGMs would be able to absorb the 80 amps available until probably 70% full and then slow down a lot. This would mean the AGMs would go from 20% to 70% nearly twice as fast as the lithium at 40 amps. The litinum would catch up by about 85-90%, I think when the AGMs will have really slowed down near the end of charging.


With the batteries in two places like the originals, you would probably have two positive cables coming out of them, one from each, and going to a binding post near the center rear of the van. From there there would be single cable to the inverter/charger area. The number two cables may be OK since there are two of them for what you need, but probably will be getting close. From the post you would go with the bigger cable if that is how it is laid out. You should try to get the positive plus negative length for each battery to add up to the same length so you get balance charging and discharging or you will unbalance the batteries over time. You can have one long one short on each battery as long as they add up the same. You also need to add the negative cable length when figuring voltage drop.


How well it all works will greatly depend on how often and how long you drive vs how much power you use between charges. The smallish charger makes short time recoveries be not a part of it, but you may not need it.

[Treker20]

Originally Posted by booster

Most AGMs would be able to absorb the 80 amps available until probably 70% full and then slow down a lot. This would mean the AGMs would go from 20% to 70% nearly twice as fast as the lithium at 40 amps. The litinum would catch up by about 85-90%, I think when the AGMs will have really slowed down near the end of charging.


With the batteries in two places like the originals, you would probably have two positive cables coming out of them, one from each, and going to a binding post near the center rear of the van. From there there would be single cable to the inverter/charger area. The number two cables may be OK since there are two of them for what you need, but probably will be getting close. From the post you would go with the bigger cable if that is how it is laid out. You should try to get the positive plus negative length for each battery to add up to the same length so you get balance charging and discharging or you will unbalance the batteries over time. You can have one long one short on each battery as long as they add up the same. You also need to add the negative cable length when figuring voltage drop.


How well it all works will greatly depend on how often and how long you drive vs how much power you use between charges. The smallish charger makes short time recoveries be not a part of it, but you may not need it.

Booster, right now the the Positive of one battery is connected to the positive of the send battery, from the second battery another cable then runs to the inv/CH. you are saying they should be one cable coming off each battery to a common point and from there one cable to the inverter charger. is that correct? Does that way of wiring make the draw equal from both batteries? Right now the negatives are wired the same way as the positives are, and then the negative cable goes to the frame. I think( trying to track wires in the small space full of other wires) the ground wire to the IN/Ch originates from a different chassis point. can this stay this way?

As for voltage drop, I was wondering about adding the negative cable length in. Using the blue sea site, you can check the using frame as ground box and then does not add in the length of the negative. If I do have to run the ground back to the battery, i should be running a larger wire since i will have more voltage drop. I believe that electronics are going to more sensitive to VD so I will want to keep that as low as possible.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Treker20

Booster, right now the the Positive of one battery is connected to the positive of the send battery, from the second battery another cable then runs to the inv/CH. you are saying they should be one cable coming off each battery to a common point and from there one cable to the inverter charger. is that correct? Does that way of wiring make the draw equal from both batteries? Right now the negatives are wired the same way as the positives are, and then the negative cable goes to the frame. I think( trying to track wires in the small space full of other wires) the ground wire to the IN/Ch originates from a different chassis point. can this stay this way?

As for voltage drop, I was wondering about adding the negative cable length in. Using the blue sea site, you can check the using frame as ground box and then does not add in the length of the negative. If I do have to run the ground back to the battery, i should be running a larger wire since i will have more voltage drop. I believe that electronics are going to more sensitive to VD so I will want to keep that as low as possible.

I am surprised yours is wired that way, our 07 had the two wires, but it was the new roof style that moved the charger to the passenger side, so they must have changed.


Anyway, all that really matters is that the total cable length that the batteries each see are equal, assuming all the cables are the same size. If there are already jumpers from battery to battery and they are similar lengths and sizes for positive and negative you can go with just two cables off the batteries. The positive would go to one of the batteries and the negative to the other battery. Those single wires would need to be larger than the jumpers as they carry double the current as the jumpers see only one battery output. The ground could then be that single negative cable to the chassis and the positive single wire would go to the inverter. If you do it this way, the only two cables that need to be the same length are the jumpers between the batteries. The others can be any length so you can make them both as short as works out well. Inverter negative would also go to chassis. Chassis is the best conductor and will be equal for both batteries.

[Treker20]

Originally Posted by booster

I am surprised yours is wired that way, our 07 had the two wires, but it was the new roof style that moved the charger to the passenger side, so they must have changed.


Anyway, all that really matters is that the total cable length that the batteries each see are equal, assuming all the cables are the same size. If there are already jumpers from battery to battery and they are similar lengths and sizes for positive and negative you can go with just two cables off the batteries. The positive would go to one of the batteries and the negative to the other battery. Those single wires would need to be larger than the jumpers as they carry double the current as the jumpers see only one battery output. The ground could then be that single negative cable to the chassis and the positive single wire would go to the inverter. If you do it this way, the only two cables that need to be the same length are the jumpers between the batteries. The others can be any length so you can make them both as short as works out well. Inverter negative would also go to chassis. Chassis is the best conductor and will be equal for both batteries.

Booster, good that will make life easier. AS for cable size, i assume you are saying that if I was to run a 2/0 from battery to charger, the runner could be smaller.If that is the case, I may be able to use the existing jumpers between the batteries.

You had a different roof style with charger on passenger side?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Treker20

Booster, good that will make life easier. AS for cable size, i assume you are saying that if I was to run a 2/0 from battery to charger, the number could be smaller.If that is the case, I may be able to use the existing jumpers between the batteries.

You had a different roof style with charger on passenger side?

Roadtrek did a midyear change to the 190 in 2007. The new roof had the slanted outer roof windows and a slightly different profile for the roof. The kitchen was also redone and some stuff moved around, exhaust fan eliminated, stainless sink, granite countertop. The charging stuff moved from the driver side rear to the passenger side rear. All of these were still in place until they were discontinued when Roadtrek went under.


If you had intended to run 2/0 from the batteries to the charger the single wire from one battery to the charger would be 2/0 as well as the single negative wire to the chassis from the batteries. The two jumpers between the batteries could be 1/2 the capacity of the other two cables because they will carry less current. Roadtrek liked to use #2 battery cables so the jumpers may be that size so you would have to check the capacity of them.

[Treker20]

Originally Posted by booster

Roadtrek did a midyear change to the 190 in 2007. The new roof had the slanted outer roof windows and a slightly different profile for the roof. The kitchen was also redone and some stuff moved around, exhaust fan eliminated, stainless sink, granite countertop. The charging stuff moved from the driver side rear to the passenger side rear. All of these were still in place until they were discontinued when Roadtrek went under.


If you had intended to run 2/0 from the batteries to the charger the single wire from one battery to the charger would be 2/0 as well as the single negative wire to the chassis from the batteries. The two jumpers between the batteries could be 1/2 the capacity of the other two cables because they will carry less current. Roadtrek liked to use #2 battery cables so the jumpers may be that size so you would have to check the capacity of them.

Great, thanks, just ordered everything but DC/DC charger, taking van in to shop tomorrow for check engine light issues. Going to get a price on New alternator.

Thanks for all of you help. I am sure i will have more questions down the road.

Terry

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by avanti

IMO, you should ALWAYS use a chassis return for any DC circuit that runs for any significant distance. The ampicity of a proper chassis connection is far greater than any practical wire size.

The web is full of advice to the contrary, but I believe that it is all wrong. There is a reason why this has been best practice in all professionally-designed vehicles for the past 100 years. It is safer, cheaper, better-performing, lighter and easier than running dedicated return wires.

You may fairly ask why so many of the installation instructions of so many devices say otherwise. As far as I can tell, these instructions are aimed toward DIY installers who (in the opinion of these manufacturers) can't be trusted to locate or fabricate proper ground points. One can see their point, since it is common to see random pieces of sheet metal or any-old-bolt used as ground points, and there is nothing more difficult to diagnose than a problem caused by an inadequate ground. They see it as to their advantage to insist on an easy-to-specify wire, no matter how inferior, since doing so costs them nothing and may save them some grief in customer support.

The bottom line is that if you can't be trusted to design and execute a proper chassis ground, then go ahead and run the wires. But, if you CAN be so trusted, a chassis ground is superior in every way.

I, of great Electrical Ignorance wholly concur.

A Loose/Intermittment Ground Wire last year, deep in the bowels of my Roadtrek chassis, caused me to age a year, in a week.

[reilym]

Originally Posted by avanti

Sure:
Some chargers (such as the Balmar regulator/charger) have a "voltage sense" input. This is a high-impedance input that reads the battery voltage while drawing almost no current. Since there is little current, there is little voltage drop, even with a very small wire. The idea is that by running such a wire from the battery to the charger, you give the charger the actual voltage at the battery, rather than the pre-voltage-drop voltage that it is actually putting out. It can thus raise the voltage to compensate for the voltage drop of the high-current (and possibly long) charging wire.

This is a very good feature, and I see no reason why a B2B couldn't have it. I was just wondering whether any of them do.

I believe that the 50 amp B2B Renogy with MPPT solar option has voltage sense, whereas the other Renogy B2B chargers do not. I have the 60 Amp charger which relies on an ignition signal to turn on (as do the 20 and 40 Amp models). I am using an external VSS to activate the ignition circuit with the added advantage of a delay feature. If the alternator voltage drops due to high load from chassis devices, the B2B cuts off and then back on after the delay. I have seen this happen a few times when idling in hot weather.

[reilym]

Originally Posted by Treker20

Hello everyone, After much reading and checking out wiring in my 2007 190P chevy Roadtrek, I have decided to upgrade to 2 100HR Lithium batteries. Thanks to all the knowledgable people that have posted about their upgrades. I am attaching a very rough sketch of a wiring diagram i made for this installation. My new batteries will be installed in the existing battery storage compartments on the outside of the vehicle. I will be using Renogy 100AH auto heating smart batteries, along with the renogy 2000W pure sine way inverter/charger and 40A DC/DC charger. I worked in the electrical field all my life, but DC is a foreign language to me.
My number one question right now is regarding the negative wires from both DC/DC charger and inverter charger. Wiring diagrams I have seen show a separate negative cable run between the battery and the chargers. From the best I can tell right now, my triplite I/C has the negative grounded to the frame. Is there any reason I can not do this for both of the new chargers or do I need to run a cable to the battery?

My drawing shows an Isolator from the alternator /Van battery. I have read a number of you saying that you have installed a cut off between the alt/battery and the DC/DC charger so if alternator can not keep up with the load it can be disconnected. Is there any reason I can't keep the isolator in circuit and run a separate switch wire to the coil of the isolator to operate it.?

Also wiring sizing from In/Charger to batteries. several sites said I need a 3/0 cable, and some say 2/0 will work over the same distance. It is roughly 8-10 between batteries and IN/CH. Instructions say 2/0 but they don't mention distances. Dollar wise and Physical size wise i am hoping to stay with 2/0.

For now that is all the questions I have but I am sure there will be many more as i go along.

I initially used my system with the battery separator in place for a short time, but since the separator is a mechanical device subject to failure and consumes an Amp or so of current, I replaced it with a "storage and maintenance" switch in the original separator location under hood. You could also just eliminate the isolator completely and directly connect the alternator to the B2B, since it will be doing the same job as the isolator. In my case, the dual 2 gauge wires going back to the B2B where overkill for the maximum of 75 input Amps that it requires. You're 40 Amp charger should not ever draw more than 50 or 60 Amps.

[markopolo]

Just a comment on Avanti's post about voltage sense. During the bulk phase for charging force, voltage sensing at the battery isn't as necessary IMO for lithium batteries as lead acid. Lithiums will take full charger output from around 13.8V & up for most charger/battery size combos. Some voltage drop wouldn't really matter as long as it doesn't drop below 13.8V. 13.6V for comparison didn't have the force necessary to utilize full charger current output at 0.7C charge rate for very long during some testing that I did whereas 13.8V did take full charger output for most of the charging time.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Just a comment on Avanti's post about voltage sense. During the bulk phase for charging force, voltage sensing at the battery isn't as necessary IMO for lithium batteries as lead acid.

That makes sense. But doesn't one need pretty tight voltages to pull off a constant-voltage "finishing" stage to get to a full charge? I guess lots of people don't bother with that, though.

I am far from an expert on this topic. Didn't care until recently. Trying to come up to speed.

[markopolo]

It appears that there's a range of voltage and charge termination current pairings that will result in a full charge: https://nordkyndesign.com/charging-m...battery-banks/

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

It appears that there's a range of voltage and charge termination current pairings that will result in a full charge: https://nordkyndesign.com/charging-m...battery-banks/

I would expect there to be a much larger change in current toward the end of charge, so perhaps the standard way for lead acid would work well. Reach a minimum voltage, which would be set pretty low and then end on amps. Hitting any given pair of volts and amps might be very tough.

[hbn7hj]

I use 14.3 volts with no amp requirement. Used to use 14.6 volts but think it is too high. Has worked well for a couple of years.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by avanti

That makes sense. But doesn't one need pretty tight voltages to pull off a constant-voltage "finishing" stage to get to a full charge? I guess lots of people don't bother with that, though.

I am far from an expert on this topic. Didn't care until recently. Trying to come up to speed.

I consider the "finishing" or "cell-balancing" stage (if that is what you're referring to) to only be necessary occasionally for lithium battery health. Similar to the need to only occasionally run a lead-acid battery de-sulfation process.

[Treker20]

Originally Posted by reilym

I believe that the 50 amp B2B Renogy with MPPT solar option has voltage sense, whereas the other Renogy B2B chargers do not. I have the 60 Amp charger which relies on an ignition signal to turn on (as do the 20 and 40 Amp models). I am using an external VSS to activate the ignition circuit with the added advantage of a delay feature. If the alternator voltage drops due to high load from chassis devices, the B2B cuts off and then back on after the delay. I have seen this happen a few times when idling in hot weather.

Mike, I am going to make the assumption that VSS means voltage sensitive switch based on your description on how it works. is that correct.

If I remember correctly about something I read from another post about B2B chargers, there is also a terminal that can change the charging amps by half. Could this switch be used to control this rather than just cutting the charger off or on?

I have heard a couple of opinions regarding the 60A B2B charger about wether my 145 A alternator be able to handle the load. If so, being able to toggle back and forth may be a good option. Since i am going to the trouble to change to the lithiums. I would like make the upgrade as highly functioning as possible. RowieBowie says he turns off his B2B charger when he first starts the engine and turns it on manually when he hits the road.

I am going to make another assumption that if temps rise and the alternator is being taxed because of the heat, the voltage will drop and the 60A B2B charger would drop down to 30.

[Treker20]

Here are pictures of the Renogy 2000W inverter/charger installation and associated wiring so far. this was installed in the storage area under the bed on the driver side. Fusing is in compartment that had the original Tripplite in/ch. B2B will go on the door that opens on the top of the old inverter charger location. next step is to reinstall bench cover and then install B2B.