190 Popular Battery Advice

[ManWonder]

We just got a 2004 Roadtrek 190 Popular. The previous owners just replaced the coach battery. I would like to add at least one more. I intend to go solar at some point. My question is what do I need to know to make sure what I get will work with the one they replaced?

[booster]

You probably have one gp27 behind the right side rear wheel. The second battery option for the 190s put another one of the same in the storage compartment in front of the wheel.

If you intend on using the existing battery, and if it is a good battery, you would need to match it as close as possible. Same make, model, capacity, etc, and even same manufacturing date if you get lucky enough to find one, although that is unlikely.

If it is not a true deep cycle battery (most "marine" batteries aren't), you might well be ahead to buy two good batteries and sell off the the one you have.

[Bud]

Hi ManWonder,

I have an 05/04 190P, basically the same rv.

About 4 months ago I finally added the second optional battery, with the purchase of 2 New Walmart group 27 batteries. There is not room for any other battery options, period. Well, unless you basically start over concerning where they are placed, etc.

I did not use a battery tray for the second battery, no good reason to do that. The second battery is Less of hassle to check the water, etc. than the original battery location!

I simply ran the cable from the original battery to the second battery, and installed a quick disconnect Battery Tender for the batteries.

If you decide to this, pleas let me know if you like. You'll need a phone, flashlight, and I'll explain exactly what I did, pieces parts, etc.

Sorry, I can't be of assistance concerning the solar. So far, I'm going with running the van's alternator for a little while vs solar.

Bud

[Buggybumpers]

Question about the second battery.. Obviously you have both wired in parallel? The point about the quick batter disconnect tender... If they are wired together.. Could you not recharge from both the alternator,or plugging into 110 and letting the converter / or inverter charging your battery? Thanks for the info... Would love to see how you plumed the cables to the storage area.. As well any bracing to prevent that battery from moving... Thank you Dan...

[ManWonder]

As it turns out, I did actually have two new batteries! The second one (to me) was behind the rear wheel. The previous owner had only shown me the one up behind the passenger front wheel. I got to wondering, perhaps this should go in another thread... when I install a battery monitor should I connect to the one up front or the one in back? Or should I go to where they connect at the charger inside the coach?

[booster]

Originally Posted by ManWonder

As it turns out, I did actually have two new batteries! The second one (to me) was behind the rear wheel. The previous owner had only shown me the one up behind the passenger front wheel. I got to wondering, perhaps this should go in another thread... when I install a battery monitor should I connect to the one up front or the one in back? Or should I go to where they connect at the charger inside the coach?

For the monitor you will need to combine the two negative battery cables at the shunt for the monitor. Both cables go to one end of the shunt, and a cable from the other end of the shunt would go to the van frame.

[Thevon]

Hi Bud, I have a 2006 RT and want to add a second battery before a summer road trip, can you provide me the info of what you did and used? If more convenient, my email is thevon@gmail.com. Thanks in advance. Greg.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Thevon

Hi Bud, I have a 2006 RT and want to add a second battery before a summer road trip, can you provide me the info of what you did and used? If more convenient, my email is thevon@gmail.com. Thanks in advance. Greg.

Hi Greg,

Last year, September 2, you inquired about this same subject. I and others responded with a bunch of stuff. It appears that after I posted, you decided to do what I did, and did not keep on reading, a guess on my part.

You missed what I could have done different, again a guess.

I'll post a link to that thread, but a little first. You 'should' have a Tripp-Lite inverter/charger, I 'should' have had one to but instead a separate dumb charger and inverter. You have more options than I had, cost wise. I went with the simplest option which has worked well for 3 years, least cost option too.

Bud

Please check out the link and return:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...tery-8202.html

Bud

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

For the monitor you will need to combine the two negative battery cables at the shunt for the monitor. Both cables go to one end of the shunt, and a cable from the other end of the shunt would go to the van frame.

I don't know about the parallel negative lead arrangement on the 190, but in installations where the negative leads are common to the chassis but not common to each other, it can be difficult if not impractical to configure both negative leads to address the SOC meter shunt. Blue Sea has resolved this with an OLED SOC Model 1830 that has an internal shunt polarity shifting network that permits inserting the shunt in the paralleled common positive leads.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I don't know about the parallel negative lead arrangement on the 190, but in installations where the negative leads are common to the chassis but not common to each other, it can be difficult if not impractical to configure both negative leads to address the SOC meter shunt. Blue Sea has resolved this with an OLED SOC Model 1830 that has an internal shunt polarity shifting network that permits inserting the shunt in the paralleled common positive leads.

Parallel negative cables from the batteries are no problem at all. The only thing that matters is that all negative amps go through the shunt to the batteries. Equal cable lengths are also not needed for this.



All you need to do is either extend or run new negatives from the batteries to the battery side of the shunt. The the other end of the shunt needs to pick up all the negatives from the loads, so you would have a cable from the chassis to the shunt for most of the loads and maybe the negative directly from the charger/inverter and/or solar to the shunt.


Just remember all loads one side of shunt all battery negatives to the other side. The instructions are usually pretty clear on all of this.


What is important is making sure the small wires from the shunt to the meter get on the right shunt connections or the meter will run backwards.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Parallel negative cables from the batteries are no problem at all. The only thing that matters is that all negative amps go through the shunt to the batteries.

Perhaps we have different thresholds for what constitutes a "problem". On basic (two agms) coach battery setups the batteries are in sufficient proximity to conveniently run both negative leads through the shunt and I would agree that if it is a problem, it's a minor one. But when you start dealing with 800ah Ecotreks, the batteries may be installed all over the place. On Our 210, three of the batteries are located where the Onan would normally be, but the fourth battery is all the way forward by the macerator pump and most likely its negative lead bonds to chassis next to that battery. Rerouting that 4/0 negative cable back to the negative cables of the other batteries is, IMO, a problem.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Perhaps we have different thresholds for what constitutes a "problem". On basic (two agms) coach battery setups the batteries are in sufficient proximity to conveniently run both negative leads through the shunt and I would agree that if it is a problem, it's a minor one. But when you start dealing with 800ah Ecotreks, the batteries may be installed all over the place. On Our 210, three of the batteries are located where the Onan would normally be, but the fourth battery is all the way forward by the macerator pump and most likely its negative lead bonds to chassis next to that battery. Rerouting that 4/0 negative cable back to the negative cables of the other batteries is, IMO, a problem.

Probably true with that. I would consider it a problem is somehow having multiple ground wires caused the SOC meter not to function properly. I would consider lots of wiring a practicality issue.



From what we have heard, you have other issues beyond battery locations if you try to put a shunt based SOC meter on Ecotrek batteries because you can't get all the ground current to the shunt because it is internal to the modules. All you would be able to catch would be what the coach actually used and with the high and unknown parasitic loads in the modules you SOC would be very inaccurate.


Also, if you did tie all the modules together, you would only have a total amount of power used and wouldn't know which was high or low if you turned them on independently as needed singly or multiples for higher loads.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Also, if you did tie all the modules together, you would only have a total amount of power used and wouldn't know which was high or low if you turned them on independently as needed singly or multiples for higher loads.

Using the Blue Sea 1830 eliminates the re-cabling necessity because in a typical coach battery setup all the battery positive leads are hardwired together which would permit a single positive metering point and the SOC can be programmed for system total ah capacity. So far so good. But as you point out, since individual Etrek batteries can be shut down at will, unless you continuously re-calibrate the SOC to reflect the number of batteries on line, you end up with bogus SOC readings.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Using the Blue Sea 1830 eliminates the re-cabling necessity because in a typical coach battery setup all the battery positive leads are hardwired together which would permit a single positive metering point and the SOC can be programmed for system total ah capacity. So far so good. But as you point out, since individual Etrek batteries can be shut down at will, unless you continuously re-calibrate the SOC to reflect the number of batteries on line, you end up with bogus SOC readings.

Reading the positive will also not do anything about finding the missing internal losses as that would not show up on the positives outside the magic box.

[Thevon]

Thanks Bud, I don’t know if it’s because I’m on a phone or not but I’ve yet to figure out how to search or post a new topic. Thanks for the link. Greg

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Reading the positive will also not do anything about finding the missing internal losses as that would not show up on the positives outside the magic box.

Agreed, but significant internal battery drain is pretty much exclusive to the Roadtrek/KS2 design. Both Xantrex/Lithionics and Volta indicate that their internal BMS drain is virtually nil.

In my experience with 800ah lithium, as a practical matter under typical use, battery SOC hasn't been much of a concern.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Agreed, but significant internal battery drain is pretty much exclusive to the Roadtrek/KS2 design. Both Xantrex/Lithionics and Volta indicate that their internal BMS drain is virtually nil.

In my experience with 800ah lithium, as a practical matter under typical use, battery SOC hasn't been much of a concern.

I don't think the other brands of lithium are using individually controlled modules either, so there is only going to be one negative and one positive unless they use a separate charge cable. if the parasitic low and consistent it can be allowed for in the SOC meter as some of them have setting for lost capacity per time period as lead acid batteries lose a fixed percent over time and they want to cover that loss. The big thing is to know what the parasitic is so you can allow for it.


Those that are keeping pets cool are the ones that really need to know what the SOC is so they have an idea of how long they can leave the pets, although Voltstart will also help in that case as long as the system doesn't "death spiral".

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Thevon

Thanks Bud, I don’t know if it’s because I’m on a phone or not but I’ve yet to figure out how to search or post a new topic. Thanks for the link. Greg

One way:

Go Here and you'll see the 'New Thread' link:

Electrical | Charging, Systems, Solar and Generators - Class B Forums

[Thevon]

Unfortunately, I understand very little of the technical explanations. What I’m wondering is will it work if I connect the new second battery hot wire to the current house battery hot wire and connect the negative wire from the new battery to the van chassis? I have read I need to get 4 gage wire and put a fuse on each end of the hot wire that connects both batteries. Does anyone have recommended in line fuses and amperage? I apologize for my lack of understanding all of this but I would like to try to add a second battery before I go on a road trip this summer.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Thevon

Unfortunately, I understand very little of the technical explanations. What I’m wondering is will it work if I connect the new second battery hot wire to the current house battery hot wire and connect the negative wire from the new battery to the van chassis? I have read I need to get 4 gage wire and put a fuse on each end of the hot wire that connects both batteries. Does anyone have recommended in line fuses and amperage? I apologize for my lack of understanding all of this but I would like to try to add a second battery before I go on a road trip this summer.

Your 2006 probably has the charger and electronics in the wheelwell area on the driver side. It is likely cabled like our 07 was with the battery cable from the single battery behind the passenger wheel going across the van to a connection post under the floor near the driver side rear. When Roadtrek added a second battery as an option, they ran the second positive all the way over to that same connection point under the body. Both batteries grounded negative to the van frame withing a couple of feet of the battery, separately.


I think the way the factory did the positive wiring is a good way to do it for a couple of reasons. First is that the existing cable from the single battery will have to carry twice the current it does now if you just tag the second positive to it so might be undersized. You also wind up with wide differences in positive cable length and size just tagging on so the second battery will charge less and discharge less and make the batteries not match well. Running the second cable will also be easier as you won't have to add a cable to the first battery that is able to move with battery slide. All the cables in our 07 were #2 size but I have heard some are #4 in other vans. I would just match the size of the new cable for the second battery to the size of the one on the original battery. You likely will be looking at getting a 6-8 foot long cable for the positive and about 2" for the negative. The downside is that you will have to be able to get under the van to do it this way, but other than that it will easier, IMO, than adding a cable to the existing battery and it will be better way to do it besides.