110 volts or 12 volts for your "stuff"

[booster]

All the talk on the Alvin, lithium battery, Zion, etc threads wants me to ask a very basic question. What is your preference, to run as much as you can on 12 volts and leave the inverter off most of the time, or have an RV that is set up to run 110 volts all the time, with the inverter continuously on. Not talking about when on shore power or generator though.

What we have seen over the years, and what we have done, is to get almost everything onto 12 volt power and leave the inverter and it's inherent losses of almost al the time. Exceptions for us, right now, are the microwave and a hair dryer. Alvin, etrek and other newer units appear to be setting up for continuous 110 volts to the van with the inverter always on when on the batteries.

The 12 volt method would almost certainly use less battery power, but the 110 version lets you use much more common items easily. I am sure there are lots of other pluses and minuses for both ways.

Will a switch to 110 in the general world be more related to getting the cost of huge battery banks and charging systems down to the non high end units, or will there always be a market for the more minimalist 12 volt powered RV?

If you were putting an RV together right now, what would you do? Would it be different if cost were not an issue, or if you were on a tight budget?

[obgraham]

Since we have the ETrek model, I consider I have 110 available any time I want it, which is nice. I accept that this capability cost me a lot of dollars.

That said, the inverter stays off most of the time (noisy) because everything I need to just exist in the RV runs fine on 12 volt -- water, heat, light, electronics rechargers. The only questionable item is the compressor reefer. I'll run it overnight on 12volt, but it seems happier on 110.

[Arlo]

As an E-trek owner, I too tend to use the inverter only when necessary. Fan noise is definitely an issue, which would no doubt be less on smaller inverters. My spouse and I really enjoy Apple TV in the evening, which requires 110v, so that is our main reason for running the inverter for a couple hours. Our small fridge works fine in 12v mode.

[Davydd]

It's Alvar.

Our goal is to be able to use our B in its entirety the same way whether it is plugged into shore power or boondocking. It really is that simple. The biggest frustration was our morning coffee. Problem solved. Our microwave was mostly a bread box without shore power. The only thing we have changed is getting rid of the propane stove top for an electric induction cooktop because we could and we could also get rid of propane since we will have an Espar diesel powered on demand hot water heater and coach heating (with 12V fan?). The only thing I will not be able to use unless hooked up to shore power is an infloor electric radiant heat pad down our aisle. Air conditioning has always been a non-factor but we could run it too a limited time. Bottom line is we don't have to make a decision of whether we need an electrical hookup or not on any given night. The only things in need seems to be the microwave and coffee maker and they are short time use items. For charging stuff we will have USB plugs about. The computers would need the 110VAC outlets. My wife could use her hair dryer. We should have enough battery power that we would never need an Onan generator. So we deleted that. So, boondocking, to use all that stuff I mentioned, which would you rather put up with, a running generator or an inverter?

[bikerbill]

I too have a RT 2015/14 E-trek CS Ext version. I use a CPAP machine that I now run using a small 12v - 115inverter plugged into the 12v system. No fan required and it works. That would work for someone who only needs small wattage 115v items i.e.: Apple TV.

I too am not happy with the fan noise of the 5000watt inverter that RT uses. But live and learn.

[Davydd]

I have no idea what a 2800w Outback inverter will sound like but it is right under the bed behind our driver's side wheel well. I will find out.

[markopolo]

We're probably going to see a mix of DC and AC for a long time.

I think Fantastic and Maxx fans are only 12v. Pumps and macerators are probably available at 12v, 24v or maybe even 110v AC.
Items like air conditioning, microwave ovens etc. can be had running on DC but they tend to be very expensive.

I think I'd just continue with the mix we have now if getting a new unit. I'm still a fan of propane.

[Arlo]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

I too have a RT 2015/14 E-trek CS Ext version. I use a CPAP machine that I now run using a small 12v - 115inverter plugged into the 12v system. No fan required and it works. That would work for someone who only needs small wattage 115v items i.e.: Apple TV.

I too am not happy with the fan noise of the 5000watt inverter that RT uses. But live and learn.

Hmmm, good point about using a tiny inverter for the Apple TV. There is only one 12v outlet in the AV cabinet, and the TV is plugged into that, but I should be able to use a 12v splitter and a tiny inverter to power the Apple TV. There is a 10amp fuse on that circuit. TV draws 5 amps and Apple TV much less, so it should work. Makes me wonder if an inverter with 2 AC outlets would let me power the Sony surround sound from the same circuit.

[Davydd]

My Pleasure-way Plateau had a small 400w inverter just for the TV and my 2011 Great West Van Legend had a similar setup of a 750w inverter just for the TV. The odd thing is whenever we camped where TV reception was decent we were usually at an electrical hookup campsite. So, in both instances I rigged connections directly to 110VAC outlets to get around running the inverters because, even small, being right next to the TV, I found them the fans to be too loud and annoying.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

My Pleasure-way Plateau had a small 400w inverter just for the TV and my 2011 Great West Van Legend had a similar setup of a 750w inverter just for the TV. The odd thing is whenever we camped where TV reception was decent we were usually at an electrical hookup campsite. So, in both instances I rigged connections directly to 110VAC outlets to get around running the inverters because, even small, being right next to the TV, I found them the fans to be too loud and annoying.

That wiring system is a bit odd, I think, and not the way a 110/12 volt system really works the best. Usually, I would think the shore power would go to a transfer switch that would change the 110 outlets from inverter to shore power depending on what was available, so the change would be invisible to he user, unless they chose to have the inverter off most of the time (then they would have to turn the inverter on when they wanted 110v, but that is all). Of course doing it this way requires one larger inverter instead of little ones at the appliance.

[bikerbill]

booster, no transfer switching on the Roadtrek E-trek package. RT uses a 5000 watt inverter which when turned on has a constant speed cooling fan and even a 2nd fan I believe if more cooling is required. Its mounted right under the couch/bed and is a "nice" that I'm not quite sure I want to sleep with unless I need the AC on and then the AC fan will drown out the inverter fan.

When plugged into shore power with the E-trek you do not automatically have shore power electric to your 115 v appliances or outlets. You need to turn ON the inverter to get shore power to the circuit breaker panel. The shore power cord goes directly into the 5000 watt Chinese inverter and does not "pass thru" to the breaker panel unless you turn ON the inverter. Also RV batteries are NOT charged just by being plugged into shore power. Again, you must turn ON the inverter to have the charger circuit, which is built into the inverter, operate. So shore power ON = Inverter On = fan running in inverter constantly = noise.

[booster]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

booster, no transfer switching on the Roadtrek E-trek package. RT uses a 5000 watt inverter which when turned on has a constant speed cooling fan and even a 2nd fan I believe if more cooling is required. Its mounted right under the couch/bed and is a "nice" that I'm not quite sure I want to sleep with unless I need the AC on and then the AC fan will drown out the inverter fan.

When plugged into shore power with the E-trek you do not automatically have shore power electric to your 115 v appliances or outlets. You need to turn ON the inverter to get shore power to the circuit breaker panel. The shore power cord goes directly into the 5000 watt Chinese inverter and does not "pass thru" to the breaker panel unless you turn ON the inverter. Also RV batteries are NOT charged just by being plugged into shore power. Again, you must turn ON the inverter to have the charger circuit, which is built into the inverter, operate. So shore power ON = Inverter On = fan running in inverter constantly = noise.

I wonder why they do that. It would seem logical to have the 110 outlets and the battery charging running directly off the shore power whenever possible, especially when in storage and non use times. They probably have a reason, but it is probably "proprietary"

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

That wiring system is a bit odd, I think, and not the way a 110/12 volt system really works the best. Usually, I would think the shore power would go to a transfer switch that would change the 110 outlets from inverter to shore power depending on what was available, so the change would be invisible to he user, unless they chose to have the inverter off most of the time (then they would have to turn the inverter on when they wanted 110v, but that is all). Of course doing it this way requires one larger inverter instead of little ones at the appliance.

The Pleasure-way and Great West Van both used a Progressive Dynamics Converter to charge the batteries. The 110v power does not go through an inverter. The small inverter I described came off the batteries and was used only for the TV in off-grid situations. The inverter came on only when you turned on the TV. The only problem as I described, since you always had the TV plugged into the inverter outlet, it would come on that way even if you were on shore power. In both Bs it was just a matter of re-plugging it into an available 110VAC outlet when on shore power.

[markopolo]

Starting with the 2004 models RT used all-in-one type units. I'm pretty sure the Tripp-Lite allowed 110v to pass through without the inverter actually needing to be on though.

Anyone have the model number and brand of the inverter currently used in E-treks? I'd be happy to read through an owner manual and try to find any tech docs to see if any adjustments are available. If something turns up we could forward it to RT for consideration.

[gerrym51]

Jim Hammill has said that these 5000 watt inverter/chargers have built in protection-sort of like the power ptotection devices that some people manually plug in. if the inverter was not on and the power going to it exclusively this protection would not work(i'm quoting him i don't actually know).


the e-trek has a lot of sensitive equipment and devices that Roadtrek 'totally warranties' for 6 years(not the chassis but everything else including appliances) this is part of the e-trek and e-trek package(CS).

the current model used is the powerstar lw6000 made by ZLpower

[Boxster1971]

I use 12v DC as much as possible. I have a 1000 watt Magnum inverter/charger that just passes through 20 amps of power to all outlets tied to inverter circuit when plugged into external power. I use a small 75 watt plugin inverter to charge laptop and camera batteries when needed if not on external power. Inverter is used for TVs, crock pot and small HB k-cup coffee maker that only draws 600 watts.


- - Mike
2013 Airstream Interstate from 2012 Sprinter 3500 tall & long

[wincrasher]

It seems to me people are willing to spend a lot of money for basically use of microwave and coffee pot. I don't use the microwave other than as a breadbox and there are lots of work-arounds for coffee. I could go to Starbucks about 10,000 times for what some are spending on batteries.

My new MacBook Pro is native 12 volt. It has a simple 12v cigarette type plug cable I ordered for $15 to charge it. All the tv/stereo/DVDs and USB charging ports are 12v. I wouldn't be surprised is entertainment devices like an AppleTV are native 12v too and just need the proper adapter.

The biggest thing to think about is not really 12v vs 110, but to buy devices that charge the same way. All my cameras, phones, pads, weather radio, walkie talkies, etc, charge via USB ports. If you have a van with multiple USB ports built in, then you are set and also can eliminate carrying a raft of AC chargers along.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Davydd]

If I wanted to abandon half my B and camp half-assed I would have stayed with tent camping. I don't want any work arounds. What I want is freedom and no urge to think I ought to seek an electrical hookup to use my coffee maker when I am going to plan on getting up to go at 6 AM two hours before generators are allowed to be run in a campground. It's little things like that and after a decade of Class B use I don't want to compromise or make do. So, yes, I can afford it and am going to make it so and use the B the same exact way no matter where I am. Also, with our touring style I don't want a Class C box shaped RV.

I have to admit I was a little apprehensive about going to the extended length 24 foot Sprinter. I did a lot of research, experimenting and designing for nearly a year before finally capitulating to it. I had a cargo carrier and used it on one trip and decided that was terribly stupid. It added more than 3 feet to my length and I couldn't even see it and judge my distances. The extra 16" length gives way more advantage. Anyone want a hitch cargo carrier, I will sell it.

I will unveil my planning and desires in about a month. Heck, I haven't even seen what I have wrought yet.

[markopolo]

Thanks for the tenting reminder, good & lasting memories hiking and tenting. I like my B better now though. But, ........... it's a stretch to call what we've done for the past few years camping. I'd have to call it Touring. We used to more or less camp in with our B when we lived on the West Coast and really enjoyed it. I guess that is the nice thing about a B van - you can use it as you wish.

I'm guilty of spending a fair bit of money for "basically use of microwave and coffee pot" over the years. I too use the microwave mostly as a breadbox and stopped carrying the coffee maker but use a toaster fairly often. I've added batteries and inverters to 3 RV's now. All four RV's I've owned have had solar, inverters and multiple batteries. And I'll probably do it again

Buy want you want, high end or low, new or used, main thing is to enjoy it

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There are some tech advances lately that are really interesting and will benefit the all electric RV idea. One is a reflective coating:

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/nove ... 12614.html

Together, the radiation and reflection make the photonic radiative cooler nearly 9 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than the surrounding air during the day.

Booster has explored passive cooling on his RT documented in his Mission "Cool Top" topic: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=12&t=2429

Another advance is spray on flexible solar cells (colloidal quantum dots). I read articles about progress in this area from time to time. I don't know how hot the coating gets though.

[booster]

We have seen lots more tents in the electric sections of campgrounds lately, with big screen tv and microwaves, so it looks like a lot of tenting isn't what it used to be. The same way, we see a lot more tents with generators, multiple batteries and inverters, etc. I guess it isn't just us B folks that are getting softer! I am probably an exception to the "enjoyed tent camping a lot in the past" group, as I got tired of it pretty quickly after spending an entire summer on the road right out of college (1/2 the time on a motorcycle and 1/2 with a car and bigger tent).