IntoTheMystery13 Checks out Class Bs

[Bud]

It appears to me that there probably is an Ideal Dumping Solution. It just took awhile for me to understand that what I have is darn close to it. I went from maybe the worst or one of the worst rv's to dump to the best or one of the best.

The only redeeming dumping feature of an 05/04 Roadtrek 190 was that the dump hose was always in the storage container. It did not need to even be cleaned. Otherwise, dumping was to be avoided if at all possible. Well, that is how I felt about it and behaved accordingly. I won't go into the details.

Now I pull out the hose to the mascerator and can dump 20 feet away not 4 feet. And I don't have to be concerned about the dump hose as I'm standing right there with a remote control that turns the mascerator on and off. I can also be inside cleaning out the black water tank so the sensors work turning the mascerator on and off.

Then if and when the mascerator fails to work, I can do the usual stuff like use a screw driver to try and get it to work. Then if I can't, I dump just like I use to with very little mess with a full dump hose of black water. I just pull the mascerator out of the dump hose and dump. The dump hose is exactly the same length as it was.

Are there presently better systems for dumping with B's? I recall one of the B's had both gravity and macerator.

Bud

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'll say it again. When I take that hose off I would much rather have a 20 gallon grey water flush after a 10 gallon black tank dump to deal with in that Pleasure-way design.

I have a little different take. I like a big black tank because that must be dumped properly. A smaller gray tank because there are other options for that.

So my Black is 20 gal and my gray is 10 gal with an overflow to the ground. Never a backup in the shower or sink. The black gravity output is on the drivers side and the gray gravity output is on the passenger side. I do have some issues with the flush, unless water is provided at the dump stations.

[Bruceper]

Originally Posted by avanti

Block ice doesn't fail. Why do you have a fridge?
Wood fires don't fail. Why do you have a microwave?
Buckets don't fail. Why do you have a water system?
Blankets don't fail. Why do you have a furnace?

The point you are trying to make is the item on the right is better than the left. We use ice to cool our coolers and drinks. We have a furnace and still use a blanket, we have a water system and still use a bucket, and we still use wood fires for cooking even though a microwave is faster.

We have both because they both work, while doing similar things. If your point here was that we have AND use both items, then I agree.

Macerator or not, it's personal choice as neither way is wrong.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bruceper

We have both because they both work, while doing similar things. If your point here was that we have AND use both items, then I agree.

That wasn't quite my point, although I do agree with it. Indeed, I DO have a dual-dump setup, so I can fall back to gravity if necessary (never had to do it so far, though).

Macerator or not, it's personal choice as neither way is wrong.

This is closer to what I was trying to say. The items on the right ARE in some sense better, but they also have costs (both monetary and complexity). Whether the costs are worth the benefits are indeed a matter of personal choice, as I said.

I was also trying to criticize the "gravity always works" argument. That argument could be applied to any of the items I listed (or virtually any technology). That doesn't make it a good argument against any of them. You have to make a cost/benefit analysis.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I think you have described yourself to a T on this subject. If not, I guess we'll have to accept you know more than every single Class B converter in business.

Every single converter? Not quite. Avion is building the Azur Class B with a single grey/black water tank. Since they are not just talking about it but actually implementing it, perhaps we can get them to chime in on the subject.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by JohnMFlores

Love this kid's unfiltered honesty, LOL.

https://youtu.be/X_zK2zt0UHs


I like the Travolta too!

Thanks for the YouTube link UNTIL.... I checked out his other videos and came across

HOW TO EMERGENCY POOP IN YOUR VAN!

I'm providing no link for the obvious reasons

Maybe I'm showing my age but young folks truly believe in free expression with zero filters.

[BBQ]

.

LOL

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I think you have described yourself to a T on this subject. If not, I guess we'll have to accept you know more than every single Class B converter in business.

With all due respect, (doncha love that?) I think that your dissing Wincrasher's contrarian position based on a majority consensus is ironic because because I would think that you of all people would know better than that. Using architecture as an example, are you prepared to join the crowd insisting that a different path should be constrained by the maxim that you shouldn't do something because nobody else does it that way? Isn't there a lot of great architecture that exists only because the architect demurred from going with the conventional flow?

I think a principal original reason for employing separate tanks is that historically it was presumed that they could have different ultimate destinations, which doesn't cut it any more.

Avion supports Wincrasher's position that a single tank works well and employs one on their Azur Class B model, so we are past theory and predictions and we'll see if a single tank flies or crashes. One thing not immediately obvious is that dual tanks compromise the black holding tank capacity because the conventional recommendation is that a black tank should initially be 1/4 filled with water (more or less depending on the tank dimensions) prior to the first use of the toilet. This is not necessary with a single tank that admits grey water. I notice that they locate the macerator right at the toilet which is probably a good idea with a single tank arrangement. IMO, locating the macerator at the toilet is a good idea regardless of the tank arrangement provided there is someway to bypass it in the event it fails.

[Davydd]

Cruising,

You named the wrong person. You could have ended the discussion with your second paragraph:

"I think a principal original reason for employing separate tanks is that historically it was presumed that they could have different ultimate destinations, which doesn't cut it any more."

You have it backwards. Historically RVs had single waste tanks. Separating black from grey is a more recent refined development and you find one converter out of all that either is not with it in how people use Bs, is looking for a cut corner cheap solution or hasn't been in the market all that long. Who really knows? Are you even sure it is a single tank? Brochure information is not always clear or accurate. I think Avanti alluded to his first Airstream having a single tank? I know my vintage Airstream trailer had a single tank but Airstream no longer does that. They evidently learned. Airstream, Roadtrek, Winnebago, Pleasure-way, Leisure Travel Vans, Advanced RV and all disagree. Those in the business have all gravitated to the two tank system and it was not driven by customers but from their own common sense practical space matters working out the details. That's a lot of overwhelming agreement.

As for water in a black tank you get plenty with urine and the toilet bowl flush. After empty a single tank or double tank setup it is all equal again with empty tanks. It might be good practice to add water initially but that would be true with either setup and you are not going to wait until you use enough grey water when you have to go. When you do number 2 you prefill your bowl with water. Since a bowl sits empty of water after a flush other than the seal you flush again or use a hose to clean the bowl if necessary. Plenty of water. I'll do number 1 several times per day with flushes. Number 2 once per day max. Again, plenty of water.

I have 44 gallons of black ( 18 ) and grey (26) capacity total. Get back to me when you can fit a tank that size in a Sprinter B. The Avion Azur says 30 gallons total.

I'm an architect, your explanation in that regard makes no sense. I don't need a lecture about architecture. This is a practical matter not a design matter. Famous architects or hack architects follow the same practical matter rules called building codes. The buildings might look wildly different but the plumbing is the same.

However, as an architect I hope I understand design and I tried to explain earlier how toilets are efficiently designed in Class Bs to maximize space when I said most are on pedestals which are actually the black tank. That puts the tank about 4" above the floor. Think about it. If you combine the black and grey tank in a B then the bathroom shower floor drain is going to be below the top of the black tank. You do know what that means don't you?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I think a principal original reason for employing separate tanks is that historically it was presumed that they could have different ultimate destinations, which doesn't cut it any more.

As far as I can see, that is exactly right. As I said, if you go back far enough, you will indeed find single black tanks, but you will also find kitchen sinks that drain directly to the ground. If there is any industry in which local-hill-climbing is rampant, the RV industry is it.

The argument that "it must be right because everybody does it that way" is one that I don't even know how to respond to.

[Davydd]

OK, could someone explain how a black tank that connects directly to a toilet bowl opening that is several inches above the floor and can fill up that high cannot overflow the bathroom floor drain if it all goes to one tank? You do know liquid seeks a level don't you?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

OK, could someone explain how a black tank that connects directly to a toilet bowl opening that is several inches above the floor and can fill up that high cannot overflow the bathroom floor drain if it all goes to one tank? You do know liquid seeks a level don't you?

If the macerator is located at the toilet and the discharge is in in the form of a slurry rather than solids, isn't there more flexibility with regard to where the black tank can be physically located? LTV apparently separates their toilet+macerator from the black tank in their Twin Bed version of the Unity. Also, couldn't a well placed check valve mitigate the consequences of your worst case scenarios?

[Davydd]

For one we are talking about Class Bs and the LTVs you speak of are Class Cs, and we are talking about the real physical possibilities of locating plumbing in Class B vans which in many ways is a height, location and physical size issue that building Class C boxes can address but Class Bs not so easily. So, if you want to cite examples, get real.

Check valve for the floor drain? Explain. Got any Class B examples of that? How soon do you think a check valve will fail when one side is backed up with slurry and what happens when you have to drain water from your shower? Liquid flows both ways and I did ask you about water seeking its own level.

Tell me again what you accomplish other than one over all smaller tank vs two separate tanks with potentially more capacity?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

For one we are talking about Class Bs and the LTVs you speak of are Class Cs, and we are talking about the real physical possibilities of locating plumbing in Class B vans which in many ways is a height, location and physical size issue that building Class C boxes can address but Class Bs not so easily. So, if you want to cite examples, get real.

Check valve for the floor drain? Explain. Got any Class B examples of that? How soon do you think a check valve will fail when one side is backed up with slurry and what happens when you have to drain water from your shower? Liquid flows both ways and I did ask you about water seeking its own level.

There is just no way to have a rational discussion here. Every discussion point is countered either with (a) some just so claim ("maybe you can do it on a class-c, but not on a B"); (b) repetition of objections that have already been answered ("what if there is a backup into the shower?"); (c) Unsupported claims of technical unfeasibility ("tell me exactly how you will make your check-valve idea work"); (d) ridiculously extreme failure modes ("What if you let your tank fill until it overflows the roof vent" [exaggeration for effect]; or (e) constant restatement of simple falsehoods ("you can fit more in two tanks than in one").

As I have said over and over again: I owned a single-tank B-van for almost a decade and it was superior in nearly every way. There were NO serious problems. The closable shower drain was simply one very-effective answer (among many) to the shower-backup issue. A single existence proof is sufficient to counter any "it can't be done" arguments. I can assure you that it can be done and done well.

Tell me again what you accomplish other than one over all smaller tank vs two separate tanks with potentially more capacity?

OK, I'll tell you again--cut-and-pasted from message #23 above:
--Lower cost
--less complexity
--greater capacity for a given volume
--better flushing due to greater fluid volume
--simpler and faster operation
--more flexibility in using the available total tank capacity.

I will continue with any rational examination of this topic, but I am out of this mindless tit-for-tat. You are welcome to the last word, my friend.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

For one we are talking about Class Bs and the LTVs you speak of are Class Cs, and we are talking about the real physical possibilities of locating plumbing in Class B vans which in many ways is a height, location and physical size issue that building Class C boxes can address but Class Bs not so easily. So, if you want to cite examples, get real.

Check valve for the floor drain? Explain. Got any Class B examples of that? How soon do you think a check valve will fail when one side is backed up with slurry and what happens when you have to drain water from your shower? Liquid flows both ways and I did ask you about water seeking its own level.

Tell me again what you accomplish other than one over all smaller tank vs two separate tanks with potentially more capacity?

For one we are talking about Class Bs and the LTVs you speak of are Class Cs, and we are talking about the real physical possibilities of locating plumbing in Class B vans which in many ways is a height, location and physical size issue that building Class C boxes can address but Class Bs not so easily. So, if you want to cite examples, get real.

Check valve for the floor drain? Explain. Got any Class B examples of that? How soon do you think a check valve will fail when one side is backed up with slurry and what happens when you have to drain water from your shower? Liquid flows both ways and I did ask you about water seeking its own level.

Tell me again what you accomplish other than one over all smaller tank vs two separate tanks with potentially more capacity?[/QUOTE]

For one we are talking about Class Bs and the LTVs you speak of are Class Cs, and we are talking about the real physical possibilities of locating plumbing in Class B vans which in many ways is a height, location and physical size issue that building Class C boxes can address but Class Bs not so easily. So, if you want to cite examples, get real.


I've read a lot of Class B vs. Class C diatribes but this is the first time I've seen the distinction used for defending a particular plumbing approach.

The Unity TB is on the same platform as any other Sprinter Class B coach. Plumbing is plumbing and the immutable rule in plumbing is that poop and pee flows downhill. Despite your pronouncement that the black tank must be directly below the toilet, I provided an example of an exception to this practice. Your response that well, it's a class C, not a class B is bizarre. I got real. Perhaps, you are the one that needs to get real.

Check valve for the floor drain? Explain. Got any Class B examples of that? How soon do you think a check valve will fail when one side is backed up with slurry and what happens when you have to drain water from your shower? Liquid flows both ways and I did ask you about water seeking its own level.


I didn't propose using check valves as a solution. Rather, since check valves are commonly used for flow control, I simply asked the question whether they could be of value in mitigating a flooding risk or the extent of a flood in an RV application. I certainly don't know if or when a check valve dealing with macerator slurry would fail but despite your objection, the fact is I suspect you don't know either. No question, an operating check valve below a toilet or shower drain about to flood will make them both unusable but at the point of threatened regurgitation of waste, might that not be closer to a virtue than a shortcoming? I'm fully aware of water seeking its own level but my cursory knowledge of check valves indicates they are capable of preventing liquids from doing precisely that. Given the unwelcome choice, I would prefer having undrained grey water sloshing around in my shower stall than black water.

Tell me again what you accomplish other than one over all smaller tank vs two separate tanks with potentially more capacity?

Avanti is the lead proponent for a single tank system and he has the credentials of working with both single and dual tank systems. I've only dealt with dual tanks so I don't have that breadth of experience so on this subject, I'm a student, not a teacher. His argument may or may not be persuasive but at least it's based on real world experience. Your pitch that a single tank is inferior is based essentially on the allegation that the current Class B builders have uniformly adopted two tank systems as a convention, (which is not true), so it's the only sensible way to build a waste discharge system. I don't buy it. Conventions do have their virtue of promoting stability and averting disaster but at the unfortunate price of encouraging the Not Invented Here syndrome and inhibiting thinking out of the box.

[mojoman]

I'm waiting for someone to yell "get off my lawn!" or "Black tanks matter"

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by mojoman

I'm waiting for someone to yell "get off my lawn!" or "Black tanks matter"

Or that black and grey tanks can be separate if equal.

[mojoman]

Make holding tanks great again?

[Davydd]

I asked questions and never once got an answer or clear explanation how a singe black tank works other than "I had one."

OK. I'm done. Get the hell off my lawn!

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I asked questions and never once got an answer or clear explanation how a singe black tank works other than "I had one."

OK. I'm done. Get the hell off my lawn!

Asked why a single black tank won't work, the only answer or clear explanation offered so far offered is that...nobody does it that way.

I hereby dub this thread to be the forum equivalent of the highway to nowhere.