So where are all the buyers for Roadtrek?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by VocalVirgo

I completely agree. RoadTrek was not the cause or the problem. I feel like their name is being tarnished very unfairly. This is 100% HYMER. They did this. And my goodness, so many people have brand new coaches and no warranties. That sucks so bad.
<snip>
I definitely dodged a bullet by not buying the Axion.

And again, this should have no reflection on RoadTrek’s reputation. They didn’t f*ck up. Hymer did.

It began in 2011 long before Hymer bought Roadtrek in 2016 when Roadtrek was taken over by a Chicago holding company with a new management team that was unfortunately retained by Hymer. Hymer was a victim that didn't do due diligence. Roadtrek is turkey vulture pickings now and Rapido got the Roadtrek brand name and one building and a few pieces to start up in North America. If you think they would honor warranties that were put in place by a hindsight corrupt management team to goose sales and probably knew they wouldn't be honored then you are a candidate to buy a bridge.

If Rapido is smart they would discard the ecotrek technology. I wonder if they will build on the Chevy platform. The Sprinter platform I think is seriously mis-designed compared with existing competitors and newer competitors that have come on the market since. That leaves little pickings other than the Roadtrek brand name coupled with what they know, Westfalia inspired designs, to re-invigorate the brand and carve out differentiated market share.

Thor bought the rest of Hymer's brand and European operations. I think they clearly knew Hymer was not the culprit and declined EHGNA and the management and their technology that was in place from 2011.

[RossWilliams]

Mercedes sprinter remains the premium platform for class b. There really isn't anything close. I can't imagine Rapido abandoning it unless they decide to downscale the Roadtrek brand to target a more price conscious buyer.

As for lithium battery technology, that is the future. But no one seems to have a proven implementation of it at a price that works for a large scale production vehicle. Whether the Etrek implementation can be tweaked to make it that is an open question. Like everything else, basing a judgment on internet complaint forums is not a good idea.

I suspect Rapido had a plan BEFORE they made a bid. That doesn't mean that plan will stand up as they implement it. The initial promise to honor warranties is an example of how more detailed information can force changes in plans.

The interview with the Westphalia exec in charge indicated they would look at sales to decide which models to continue. That implies that they hadn't made firm decisions on that yet. But it may just be a way of avoiding any public statements on specific models just yet.

Hymer (EHG) obviously attempted an aggressive expansion to North America with Hymer NA. But they put most of the risk of that expansion on their customers, suppliers and employees. Apparently Hymer (EHG)/Thor is going to get its "loans" to finance the expansion repaid out of the bankruptcy proceeds before any of the rest of us see anything.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Mercedes sprinter remains the premium platform for class b. There really isn't anything close. I can't imagine Rapido abandoning it unless they decide to downscale the Roadtrek brand to target a more price conscious buyer.

There are certain styles of B-van for which the Sprinter is still the best available choice overall. But my guess is that Rapido's long-term plans are not in that direction. Anyone who knows the European scene realizes that other alternatives are favored by a significant margin. Moreover, given the reliability nightmare that the US spec'd Sprinter has become, they may well be motivated to dump the platform as soon as practicality permits.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

It began in 2011 long before Hymer bought Roadtrek in 2016 when Roadtrek was taken over by a Chicago holding company with a new management team that was unfortunately retained by Hymer. Hymer was a victim that didn't do due diligence. Roadtrek is turkey vulture pickings now and Rapido got the Roadtrek brand name and one building and a few pieces to start up in North America. If you think they would honor warranties that were put in place by a hindsight corrupt management team to goose sales and probably knew they wouldn't be honored then you are a candidate to buy a bridge.

If Rapido is smart they would discard the ecotrek technology. I wonder if they will build on the Chevy platform. The Sprinter platform I think is seriously mis-designed compared with existing competitors and newer competitors that have come on the market since. That leaves little pickings other than the Roadtrek brand name coupled with what they know, Westfalia inspired designs, to re-invigorate the brand and carve out differentiated market share.

Thor bought the rest of Hymer's brand and European operations. I think they clearly knew Hymer was not the culprit and declined EHGNA and the management and their technology that was in place from 2011.

The management team that the holding company had was the carry over from Roadtrek in Hammil and his cohorts. IMO, the downslide started with the Roadtrek poor designs and horrible reaction to the recession during Hammil's rule, and for some reason Hymer thought it was a good idea to carry them over again. We all know how well that worked out for them.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I thought Rapido was to honoring a two year warranty on most past purchases. Was the Axioin you were considering on the list of excluded vehicles?

Rapido purchased Roadtrek and are only covering Roadtrek produced rigs.

Hymer, Carado, and Sunlight were all Hymer products. Since Hymer and all of its product names are now owned by Thor, who has given no indication that they have any interest in assisting those owners, they are on their own.

[VocalVirgo]

Originally Posted by avanti

There are certain styles of B-van for which the Sprinter is still the best available choice overall. But my guess is that Rapido's long-term plans are not in that direction. Anyone who knows the European scene realizes that other alternatives are favored by a significant margin. Moreover, given the reliability nightmare that the US spec'd Sprinter has become, they may well be motivated to dump the platform as soon as practicality permits.

I completely agree. The *US Spec’d* Sprinters have been shockingly unreliable. It puts an even worse name to diesel vehicles after Volkswagen’s #DieselGate. I myself, am a diesel snob, seriously. But when it was Van-Time for me, I went gas ProMaster. I simply could not ignore how badly the Sprinter’s reliability had crashed (mostly due to very complicated emissions systems). Both the 4 Cylinder and 6 Cylinders were very problematic and expensive to fix. And I did MONTHS of research before buying my van. When push came to shove, because I was building out my own van and not purchasing a proper Class B… I went with the ProMaster because I could get a tall roof and it was front wheel drive. The Chevrolet was very tempting because we all know Chevy’s 6.0 engines and transmissions are bulletproof. But I just didn’t want to pay to have the roof cut off and a fiberglass roof put on to give me standing height (I had just gotten done with a nightmare situation with sportsmobile). So, I am now a gasser. First time in 20 years. Actually, I would still have my diesel Volkswagen Jetta, had they not paid me an enormous amount of money to sell it back to them. Otherwise I would have kept it and bought a Scamp!

On another note, and not completely off subject, again, LOL… I was very disappointed when Roadtrek canceled the 170. That van I actually would’ve purchased instead of building out my own. Loved it.

So, I hope somebody does resurrect Roadtrek and all of the models that we all loved before all of this drama started unfolding, apparently years ago, even before the Hymer drama.

*All typos courtesy of Siri.

[mumkin]

Roadtrek cancelled the 170 because first, it was not a big seller, but more importantly Chevy was not dependably providing the 2500 van anymore. Last summer when I took mine in to fix one nagging issue before trading it for my SRT, the local dealer said that they too had been unable to order any in almost a year.

[RossWilliams]

I simply could not ignore how badly the Sprinter’s reliability had crashed (mostly due to very complicated emissions systems).

Yes, the emission controls for modern diesels have added a complication to diesel's overall reliability. Its another part to go bad. For "diesel snobs" they will never live up to their past glory.

I also don't think I would buy a Mercedes if I were a DIYer. They really require professional maintenance and you are going to end up frustrated. But they are as durable as ever and will last a long time. That is important if you are investing a lot of money on the living space of an RV. Not to mention, Sprinters are a pleasure to drive which is important if you are going to spend a lot of time driving one.

[booster]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Roadtrek cancelled the 170 because first, it was not a big seller, but more importantly Chevy was not dependably providing the 2500 van anymore. Last summer when I took mine in to fix one nagging issue before trading it for my SRT, the local dealer said that they too had been unable to order any in almost a year.

It is interesting that there seem to be that are a disproportionate amount of Chevy 170s showing up on ebay all the time. We rarely ever see one on the road, though, so kind of odd.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

But they are as durable as ever and will last a long time.

How do you define "durable"? Yes, the basic drivetrain is quite durable. I doubt that many RVers will ever wear one out. But, if keeping them running involves countless trips to the dealer to replace NOx sensors, DEF heaters, DEF pumps, DPF, wheel speed sensors and more, the reliability of the basic mechanics is pretty irrelevant. All of these issues are very real and there is zero evidence to suggest that things are getting any better.

I no longer consider the Sprinter diesel drivetrain a viable alternative as an RV platform. The bottom-line lack of reliability and the consequences of such failures are both a disgrace.

[GeorgeRa]

My 2013 Sprinter was very reliable, over 6 years and no issues. Then came Midland Texas. DEF temperature sensor (dealer claimed DEF heater) and NOx sensors emptied my wallet by an equivalent of a new and shiny GM V8 6l engine.

Fortunately, MBUSA corrected Midland dealer’s warranty decision and paid us in full.

I interpolated cost of these repairs into the gas mileage calculation over 30K miles, it went from over 20 to 10mpg, GM V8 would have been much better.

Calming my wallet drain concerns I checked aftermarket prices for NOx, DEF stuff and DPF and these prices are much lower than from MB, still expensive but not ridiculously expensive.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Calming my wallet drain concerns I checked aftermarket prices for NOx, DEF stuff and DPF and these prices are much lower than from MB, still expensive but not ridiculously expensive.

Do you know which of those can be repaired without access to Star Diagnostics and the accompanying subscription service from MB?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Do you know which of those can be repaired without access to Star Diagnostics and the accompanying subscription service from MB?

I am not the expert so take it with a grain of salt. NOx sensors do required programming. Level sensors (I think 2 metal rods), temperature sensor and the heater likely not. Somewhere online I found the specification for the heater and mine was within the spec – 2.89 Ohms. The heater and temperature sensor are simple devices, they shouldn’t require programming, but being MB maybe. Level sensors should never fail unless designed in Germany.

[VocalVirgo]

Originally Posted by avanti

How do you define "durable"? Yes, the basic drivetrain is quite durable. I doubt that many RVers will ever wear one out. But, if keeping them running involves countless trips to the dealer to replace NOx sensors, DEF heaters, DEF pumps, DPF, wheel speed sensors and more, the reliability of the basic mechanics is pretty irrelevant. All of these issues are very real and there is zero evidence to suggest that things are getting any better.

I no longer consider the Sprinter diesel drivetrain a viable alternative as an RV platform. The bottom-line lack of reliability and the consequences of such failures are both a disgrace.

OK, so when I read this one I had to chime in... It was all of these things mentioned above that had me (painfully) PASS on a *Brand New* 2018 Melbourne (with the rear bath and rear L-Shaped kitchen, fireplace, and electric raising TV etc... all the goodies). My OTD Price was $59,000. It was a once in a lifetime deal, but I just pictured myself being stuck all the time waiting for repairs on (everything) emissions.
And that's why I bought the ProMaster and built it out. It was a hard pass, but I'm glad I passed. I sleep better at night knowing the ProMaster will start in the morning. Honestly, I never thought I'd ever have a gas vehicle again...

[RossWilliams]

I sleep better at night knowing the ProMaster will start in the morning.

When its new. So will most diesels. If you buy new and trade in every few years you may be slightly less likely to have problems. But if you buy for long use, the diesel is probably going to last you a lot longer as a reliable base for your mobile quarters.

I always find it curious that people complain about countdowns and "cripple mode". It seems those would both be better than it just not running, which is what I have had happen with aging gas engines.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

When its new. So will most diesels. If you buy new and trade in every few years you may be slightly less likely to have problems. But if you buy for long use, the diesel is probably going to last you a lot longer as a reliable base for your mobile quarters.

I always find it curious that people complain about countdowns and "cripple mode". It seems those would both be better than it just not running, which is what I have had happen with aging gas engines.

I have not heard nor read from anyone that diesel engines from MB or other brands are very unreliable, but since introduction of an urea injection to fight NOx and DPF to limit particulates they are not as reliable as they were in the past and are expensive to fix.

[booster]

The diesel/gas discussion has been going on for a long time, and likely will continue for at least a while as there is no completely definitive answer.



These days, gas engines have gotten much better for longevity, so IMO the durability payback portion of diesel advantage has gone away, but the initial cost disadvantage is still in there.



Bottom line is that most engines built now are capable of outlasting the vehicle if well cared for, diesel or gas. The Ford, Dodge, GM gassers have shown that over time, as have most of the smaller diesels, even though all brands have had bad designs of either gas or diesels that didn't hold up.


What is interesting is that we heard of, IIRC, two of the older but low mileage 5 cylinder Sprinter diesels that recently had catastrophic engine failures. With so few of them on the road compared to other engines, getting two of that kind of failure in a short time would have to be considered very unusual and statistical outlier, I would think (and hope). It does show, however, that no brand is perfect in diesel or gas.

[SteveJ]

Back in the 70's I had a route sales job for a large frozen pizza company. We used 1 ton Chevies with a 350 gas engine. The fleet average was a quarter million miles. This was back then.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect current and recent gassers to do the same or more.

My 2000 Chevy Roadtrek has about 195k miles on it and still performs well. Since I've owned it I've put about 73 on it, 60 pulling a trailer with a total weight of 11,000 lbs in and out of the western mountains. Now, shedding trans heat is another matter...

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by SteveJ

Back in the 70's I had a route sales job for a large frozen pizza company. We used 1 ton Chevies with a 350 gas engine. The fleet average was a quarter million miles. This was back then.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect current and recent gassers to do the same or more.

My 2000 Chevy Roadtrek has about 195k miles on it and still performs well. Since I've owned it I've put about 73 on it, 60 pulling a trailer with a total weight of 11,000 lbs in and out of the western mountains. Now, shedding trans heat is another matter...

... and these engines cost a fraction of an MB exhaust emission control.

I like to see how Mazda new gas engine will do, gas mileage equivalent to diesel, longevity likely the same and torque equivalent as well. All due to spark/compression ignition combo innovation.

Fill cylinder with very lean gas/air mixture – unignitable by piston compression, just before TDC inject very high-pressure gas – ignite with spark – and combustion pressure wave ignites lean mixture by compression. So timing is precisely controlled by sparks.

[booster]

Originally Posted by SteveJ

Back in the 70's I had a route sales job for a large frozen pizza company. We used 1 ton Chevies with a 350 gas engine. The fleet average was a quarter million miles. This was back then.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect current and recent gassers to do the same or more.

My 2000 Chevy Roadtrek has about 195k miles on it and still performs well. Since I've owned it I've put about 73 on it, 60 pulling a trailer with a total weight of 11,000 lbs in and out of the western mountains. Now, shedding trans heat is another matter...

We now know of numerous ways to help the trans heat issue, so you should be able to greatly improve that issue. BJ has pulled very large trailers with his Chevies for a long time.