Rapido's Plans for Roadtrek

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

As I understand it the standard European RV has no air conditioning, no microwave, no inverter and no black water tank. I don't know how large a market there is for that in the US……………………………..

I found very interesting that anytime NA B-class prices are questioned, folks come up with standardized NA prices defending talking points. Bringing by Westfalia/Roadtrek an EU specced camper van based on Promaster for $50K with all missing “talking points” would open the door for camping folks such as 4-5 young families not necessarily present in volume on this forum.

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

……………………. but some of the do-it-yourself folks have done something similar on a pretty low budget.

Doing my own conversion, I can say with certainty that I wouldn’t be able to match Westfalia’s manufacturing capability in cost and fit and finish quality, a 21st century factory is necessary. I could however exceed Roadtrek electrical system quality by using system components with marine level quality, marine wiring or even a trivial updated schematic. Idiot lights for battery monitoring is a prime example of subpar quality by either cost cutting, ineptness or a “why change” attitude.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I found very interesting that anytime NA B-class prices are questioned, folks come up with standardized NA prices defending talking points. Bringing by Westfalia/Roadtrek an EU specced camper van based on Promaster for $50K with all missing “talking points” would open the door for camping folks such as 4-5 young families not necessarily present in volume on this forum.



Doing my own conversion, I can say with certainty that I wouldn’t be able to match Westfalia’s manufacturing capability in cost and fit and finish quality, a 21st century factory is necessary. I could however exceed Roadtrek electrical system quality by using system components with marine level quality, marine wiring or even a trivial updated schematic. Idiot lights for battery monitoring is a prime example of subpar quality by either cost cutting, ineptness or a “why change” attitude.

I have always found the discussions on costs and theoretical costs very interesting, mainly because it was a major part of all my jobs over more than 40 years of working.


I think an interesting claim often made by consultants, that I found to be somewhat true, kind of summed up the whole thing. "The average manufacturing facility can trim costs by 1/3 by just implementing ......****----. With the symbols being the particular improvement program they were trying to sell you on. I was never a big fan of the improvement programs because they tried to put the same solution on every problem instead of evaluating the issue and creating a unique solution, but the 1/3 reduction is something that I saw on a regular basis as we worked to improve efficiencies.


This is not going to make a $100K class b a $66K one as manufacturing efficiencies don't apply to all costs, and design improvements may only be applicable because the allow more efficient manufacturing. You also need to calculate in the real costs of the improvements due to investments in people, training, equipment, etc. Of course just because you improve your efficiency, doesn't make the microwave you have to but any cheaper. IMO, a 25% improvement in selling price is very reasonable to expect unless management gets greedy and wants all the savings for the owners or shareholders.



I am looking at this as "clean up" of an existing product line and manufacturing facility, not as a clean sheet design and facility. Clean sheet final cost reductions would likely be lower, but I don't know if the market is big enough and stable enough to be able to fund the upfront costs of a clean sheet startup as the paybacks would be way too long for any investors.


The well run manufacturers of stuff are always looking at what a clean sheet setup could give them, and will often dedicate a lot of funding back into lab setups to test designs and methods that can then be phased in as new products or models are brought into the product lines. From what seems to be happening lately, I worry that companies are not doing that very well right now, as they taking all their new found tax relief and good economy benefits and putting them into stock buy backs and big investor dividends, while they are also carrying debt, which makes little sense.


I am waiting to see a 3D robotic arm printer that will reach in through the van doors and print all the basic interior cabinets seats floor, etc, right into place going right around anchor points to retain them!


I will add a subnote, comment, also. Bad quality can destroy any and all of the above in a heartbeat. I think we saw that very plainly in the Roadtrek implosion. They had pricepoints that would have allowed them to be successful, I think, even with poor methods and weak designs, but the quality issues interfered with making it work. Rework and warranty costs and production stoppages and delays to fix things will bleed the life out of a company both from a money point of view and a degradation of pride of the workforce. The reaction to bad quality is also often to point fingers within the organization and beat on the workers harder, which is also counterproductive.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

………………………………….
I will add a subnote, comment, also. Bad quality can destroy any and all of the above in a heartbeat. I think we saw that very plainly in the Roadtrek implosion. They had pricepoints that would have allowed them to be successful, I think, even with poor methods and weak designs, but the quality issues interfered with making it work. Rework and warranty costs and production stoppages and delays to fix things will bleed the life out of a company both from a money point of view and a degradation of pride of the workforce. The reaction to bad quality is also often to point fingers within the organization and beat on the workers harder, which is also counterproductive.

Indeed, bad quality can kill any decent profits or even cause company demise.

My experience is from new product design and manufacturing and bulk of my work was in R&D. I have good understanding of modern factory benefits, it an absolute must to have low cost, good time to market, and overall quality. Can anyone imagine buying an automobile from Sportsmobile, Outside Van, Van Specialties or many other smaller or larger mom and pop shops.

Pricing strategy has many drivers but having a low cost starting point allows pricing flexibility. NA B-class pricing strategy is primarily driven by maximum profit and manufacturing capacities limits, whatever market can bear, not much finesse there. Ford Transit Summit Adventure Van recently posted here is a good example of an absolutely ridiculous price.

[rowiebowie]

Don't forget low cost is only good if quality is adequate and the low cost is passed along to consumers.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems the class market prices are rising more than inflation or pure sales figures would indicate. Travatos (non "L" versions are a good example). When they debuted a few years back, I don't recall any MSRP's approaching $100k.

Since the Sprinters continue to rise in price, and with Roadtrek's production gone, Travatos could go up, and they're not the only one that did. That's my perception, anyway.

[RossWilliams]

Some of the new market is not all that price conscious. A couple of different salesman told me they were selling Class B's to people whose primary use was tail-gaiting or a comfortable travel vehicle for the drive south in the winter. Essentially just another expensive toy to add to the collection. They were talking about upper-end Roadtreks well over $100,000 MSRP.

If Roadtrek's restored production really is limited, I would not be surprised if $100,000 is the real floor on the actual sale price for any of their units. You won't be able to get even a stripped down Zion for less than that new.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

…………………
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems the class market prices are rising more than inflation or pure sales figures would indicate. Travatos (non "L" versions are a good example). When they debuted a few years back, I don't recall any MSRP's approaching $100k.
Since the Sprinters continue to rise in price, and with Roadtrek's production gone, Travatos could go up, and they're not the only one that did. That's my perception, anyway.

This niche B-class market segment prices could continue rise until lower cost at high quality options becomes available. Atlantic is big body of water but not sufficient to stop potential low-cost camper vans to surface here. One modern factory like Adria or Westfalia can shake this niche market deeply.

Attached video is old, I had 2 Westfalias and believe that VW/Westfalia approach was business savvy than and it would be business savvy now. Perhaps we will see it again with new VW electric van. Note that these vans were insulated, this was 30 years ago, how is Winnebago doing today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-GUc5Bn_RE

I just found the base price for 2020 VW James Cook, between 70 to 75K € ($78-83K). It is built in the new Westfalia Gotha plant opened in 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPRVt5TlkTo

[rowiebowie]

Agree with what you say they could shake up the market (heaven knows it needs it).

But remember, Westfalia was rescued by it's current owner in 2008. Of course the prior owner was Daimler/Chrysler who didn't do much right during that time. So there are parallels to Roadtrek/Erwin Hymer.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

Agree with what you say they could shake up the market (heaven knows it needs it).

But remember, Westfalia was rescued by it's current owner in 2008. Of course the prior owner was Daimler/Chrysler who didn't do much right during that time. So there are parallels to Roadtrek/Erwin Hymer.

Westfalia/VW vanished from NA as a result of external factors:
- Daimler acquisition of Westfalia caused Westfalia/VW divorce. VW attempted using Winnebago in lieu of Westfalia but quality wasn’t there and VW bus pulled out from NA while continuing success in Europe.
- SUV market segment in NA bloomed thriving on vanishing VW bus and station wagons market segments. Station Wagons are coming back in a new embodiment of crossovers but I doubt we will ever see VW T6 or T7.

Roadtrek first problems were caused by 2007 recession but second was self-induced mismanagement and short live marriage with Hymer.

I have big hopes for Roadtrek’s new venture under Rapido/Westfalia, it seem as they have their heart in making this new mission successful, Hymer went for cash.

[HitchNride]

Well, this is the news I was waiting for, or so I thought! My new-to-me 2017 Zion has had a broken Girard water heater since the day I bought it a few months ago. However, when I searched on how they would honor the warranty, I was SHOCKED to find this in an interview:

RVB: Has there been a resolution regarding the Roadtrek warranties?

Reuer: Yes. We will honor warranties, of course. However, we will not be able to honor the previous six-year warranty. Instead, warranty claims will be honored for a two-year period commencing on the date of purchase up to a maximum warranty claim amount of $1,500 per unit. New units will have a two-year warranty.

What a double-tongued statement - "yes of course, we will honor!" ... but only for two years (so I'm out of luck, or I will be, by the time they commence operations?) and only $1,500 per unit. (which is enough in my case - water heater control board, which Girard says is the issue, is $200, whole heater is $400 or thereabouts)

Anyone else heard any other info about warranties for existing owners?

[falfal3]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Wants to remain? Really? All these dealers are now dealers for Pleasureway, Coachmen, WGO, Airstream et al. They got snake bit by RT and had to sell off RT coaches at a loss. You seriously think Rapido is going to recapture market share in a cake walk?

Yup, sure do and why not? Go Roadtrek, love mine!

[Davydd]

I doubt Rapido was under any obligation to warrant any RV manufactured by EHGNA. They proposed a goodwill gesture which was generous since many manufacturers warrant only for one year. The EHGNA scammed its customers with generous pyramid scheme of 6 years and maybe they knew beforehand they wouldn't honor 6 years in order to boost sales. Rapido rightfully would never take over warranty of a flawed EcoTrek system. Your anger should be at EHGNA, not Rapido. If people don't understand that, then Rapido may have underestimated the Roadtrek brand name and just bought a pyrrhic brand.

[booster]

I would agree that the issue is with Hymer and Roadtrek, not Rapido as Rapido didn't have to warrant anything at all unless they chose to.


Hymer and Roadtrek did exactly the worst thing a company can do if they have unreliable designs and bad quality. Instead of fixing the designs and quality, they put on a long warranty to fool customers into thinking they were high quality products. That is a scenario that has buried more than one business due to overwhelming warranty costs.



I think it is obvious that the legacy warranty costs would have been so high that nobody could afford to buy the Roadtrek name and survive if they had to honor them all, based on history we have seen for the amount of repairs needed.

[HitchNride]

Originally Posted by booster

I would agree that the issue is with Hymer and Roadtrek, not Rapido as Rapido didn't have to warrant anything at all unless they chose to.


Hymer and Roadtrek did exactly the worst thing a company can do if they have unreliable designs and bad quality. Instead of fixing the designs and quality, they put on a long warranty to fool customers into thinking they were high quality products. That is a scenario that has buried more than one business due to overwhelming warranty costs.



I think it is obvious that the legacy warranty costs would have been so high that nobody could afford to buy the Roadtrek name and survive if they had to honor them all, based on history we have seen for the amount of repairs needed.

I agree with you two guys, no one expects them to honor the full warranty. But my point is - when do they start the warranty process for existing units? Now, or in 2020? And, second - if they are ONLY limiting themselves to $1,500 per unit (which is laughable - even a third party warranty doesn't have such limits, for many years)... why not just uphold the original six years? It stinks and reeks like a PR stunt, all show and no go, if you know what I mean. I mean, they have a whole year off the clock already by the time they start honoring warranties, so really at that point, it will be only 2018 and 2019 units, with a cap of $1,500.

Regarding bad product and making it look good with a long warranty - wow, I guess I got fooled then. I thought for sure from all the research on RoadTrek that I did before I bought mine (much of it on here), up to a year in advance, that the long warranties that RoadTrek and PleasureWay included were indicative of a solidly built product, unlike the mass-manufactured stuff like travel trailers and cheap motorhomes that really do fall apart a year in. Funny how everything falls apart and stories change, even on the userbase's side!

Edit: I am not pointing any fingers here. If anything I agree. I had to replace the bolts holding the rear cabinets up, one was hanging by one bolt (unit came with 32,000 miles on it - a good bit, but not that much!), and the water heater - a joke to put something that uses a gallon of water to heat up in a unit with a 17-20 gallon usable tank or whatever it is. In my truck camper, I could get at least 4 if not 5-6 showers out of my similar sized fresh and grey. Pretty sure I'd be lucky to get two out of the Girard with its heat-up time (plus the extra time backpedaling the boiling hot water to usable temperatures).

Only thing I can hope now is that they pump up the prices as discussed in this thread, and that my used value goes up enough so I don't lose anything if I have to sell it in a year or two!

[RossWilliams]

I think we need to be clear that the company, EHGNA, that manufactured all the current Roadtreks is out of business and in receivership. If you have problems with those products, your only financial recourse is with the receiver and the court.

If there is a scam here its that the sole owner of EHGNA, Erwin Hymer Group, now part of Thor, has claimed all the money it invested in EHGNA was a loan and apparently are going to get repaid for those "loans" from the proceeds of selling EHGNA's assets before many of EHGNA's customers or vendors are made good on their losses. That includes honoring our six year warranties which were mentioned simply as a liability of indetermined amount in the receivership's statement of insolvency.

The Roadtrek brand was one of the assets that was sold. Rapido was the buyer of the Roadtrek brand and the intellectual property associated with its models. They also purchased RV's that were under construction and assumed a lease on one of the manufacturing facilities.They are now creating a new company to restore the Roadtrek brand including many of the same models. They have made it clear that includes the lithium Ecotrek models.

Its not clear whether Rapido agreed to provide these limited warranties as part of the purchase or if this was a decision made to protect the Roadtrek brand. In either case, no one has any complaint with Rapido or the new Roadtrek company it is creating. Their complaints are with EHGNA and its owners Erwin Hymer Group/Thor Industries.

As for the Roadtrek brand, most of us who own one are really happy campers. Even most of the people who were early adopters of the Ecotrek lithium batteries. My bet is that new Roadtrek company's main challenge is going to be ramping up production quickly enough to meet demand and keep their dealer network satisfied.

[booster]

Regarding bad product and making it look good with a long warranty - wow, I guess I got fooled then. I thought for sure from all the research on RoadTrek that I did before I bought mine (much of it on here),

I think you will find there were/are quite a few on here that knew and stated regularly that the Roadtrek quality was not good, and the same thing true of their designs like Ecotrek and use of low end private label components. The mistreatment of customers who dared to complain was also extensively discussed here.

We were truly called all kinds of things by the Roadtrek "true believers", and it is likely you saw mostly the posts by them that insisted that anyone that questioned Roadtrek in any way was somehow impaired.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

I think you will find there where/are quite a few on here that knew and stated regularly that the Roadtrek quality was not good, and the same thing true of their designs like Ecotrek and use of low end private label components. The mistreatment of customers who dared to complain was also extensively discussed here.

We were truly called all kinds of things by the Roadtrek "true believers", and it is likely you saw mostly the posts by them that insisted that anyone that questioned Roadtrek in any way was somehow impaired.

Ok Mr booster, what is the smiley or whatever they're called for 'Go Figure'?

I mean, you can't make this sh.. stuff up.

Bud

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

Ok Mr booster, what is the smiley or whatever they're called for 'Go Figure'?

I mean, you can't make this sh.. stuff up.

Bud

Don't know what smiley that would be, this may be your chance to create one....


How many times did people on this forum repeat that all opinions needed to be put out, both good and bad, so those doing research would not be fooled by the totally controlled Roadtrek Facebook glowing praise? I guess it was not stated often enough, based on that information not getting through in this case, and that is truly unfortunate.

[Bud]

"Don't know what smiley that would be, this may be your chance to create one...."

booster, we now know that if there is not one, there will be in short order.

Bud

[HitchNride]

I know EHGNA is the truly guilty party (and Thor too if they finagled their way to get ahead of what customers were owed). All I am saying is, the way Rapido's exec stated the warranty just doesn't come across right. Pretty much, like the Ford "any color you like! as long as it's black", but without any of the cachet. ("yep your warranty is re-instated! oh, but time's out and it would only cover X amount, so basically, it wasn't much we were reinstating anyway") Regarding EcoTrek - sure, I would totally understand if they couldn't do anything at all on a specialized system like that. But $1,500 - that wouldn't even cover AC replacement if done at a dealership, would it...

And on the other concerns - I definitely got some of the feedback that RoadTrek might not be such a premiere brand throughout my research... In fact I had my money down on an older Pleasure Way! But I really needed the high output alternator, and also, I realized I hated the Ford chassis way too much. (along with some other issues that cropped up on it) I don't hate my unit that much!

All Bs are over-priced anyway. It's their dual-purpose nature that props them up. (all the money people "save" by using only one vehicle, not having to pay storage fees, perhaps lower insurance, etc. - all good points except that market forces priced it into the price of the class Bs anyway!) I really realized this once I saw just how used (from driving) so many recent model Bs look! Even a 2018 looked like it was a 7-10 year old vehicle already! (had been driven carelessly - lots of hits to the wide body on both sides, roof was rusting, etc... but asking $90k, lol)

[RossWilliams]

" All I am saying is, the way Rapido's exec stated the warranty just doesn't come across right."

Remember his first language is French, that was not the only place he used odd language. And, as I recall, he was responding to an oddly worded question.

Remember most of the components still have their own manufacturer warranties for recent sales. So that $1500 limit is really on Roadtrek components. Unlike the original six year warranties, these don't sound like they are transferable. So if you bought used they aren't covering you. Its really much closer to a traditional warranty intended to fix immediate problems for recent buyers.

Roadtrek's six year warranty was, to some extent at least, a marketing gimmick. In a marketplace filled with shoddy quality control, they were promising to make things good. It was certainly a selling point for us when we bought used. If something didn't work, we could get if fixed.