MUNDANE MAINTENANCE - Cooling System

[phantomjock]

This not an exciting "MOD," but something that ought to be of some interest.
Seems everyone is anxious when buying a used ClassB to get all the maintenance records. Good plan, even for the purchase of any used vehicle. We did so when we bougfht ours too.

I'll admit, mine was a cursory look when we purchased, but it was easy to see the previous owners used service facilities, rather than DIY. I'm keeping a log of my maintenance, and assume many of you are as well. But that is not the prupose of this thread.

I recently got an (engine) overheat. Not too drastic, but enough to cause concern. Now I'm going through the system. Radiator pressure checked good and held for over 3 hours before I terminated the test.
Next I'll check for combusion gasses in the coolant (indicates a head gasket fail). Not suspecting such as we get no white smoke at the tail pipe, but a caution worthy of noting.

Then I plan to do a complete flush of the system. As I am getting ready, I took a second moment to go through the vehicle records. To my surprise, there is no indication a coolant flush has ever been accomplished - the vehicle is 16 years old! Given the Chevy Owner's Manual recommendations, it should happen every 150,000 miles (now just at 92K) - OR every 5 Years, WHICHEVER occurrs FIRST. So, there should be record of 3, or at least 2. So, I think its time to flush the system.

But, because I can overthink things, I recall waterpumps are good for about 100K. Having searched the forum, all but one thread is about the household waterpump - not the engine. I am reaching a cost/benefit decision point. I almost seems I should just go ahead and replace the waterpump as PM and not risk tossing a complete round of coolant. [NOTE: A waterpump for the Chevy 6.0L runs around the same price as a complete flush of coolant.]

Any experience here? Anyone replaced an engine waterpump? It's not a hard task, I am just interested at about what point you might have done so, 100K, 150K, never? If you did replace, what pump did you use? Also if you are "generaly" following the OEM guidelines for coolant flush?

Thanks in Advance!

Cheers - Jim

[avanti]

Time-based fluid replacement is a controversial topic. It is very difficult to point to any science-based support for such recommendations. (Brake fluid is an exception, due to moisture absorption). A lot of us believe that they are intended more to help dealers than to help vehicles.

FWIW: The OEM service recommendations for my MY2022 Ford Transit calls for coolant replacement at 200,000 miles, regardless of time. This is not atypical of modern vehicles and coolant formulations.

[phantomjock]

Understood. And with regard to GM products, there a was a period where the perscribed coolant of record dex-cool was highly disrepected. Apparently they have improved their formulation.

Waterpumps are a different issue. The 100K is perhaps a conservative estimate for life span. But, from my previous life experience, I'd rather have swapped a pump 10-20K before a possible failure point (unknown of course) than have a failure in the OUTBACK. It is Schrödinger's cat.

Uh-oh. I may have just convinced myself to go get that pump! On with testing!

Cheers - Jim

[phantomjock]

COMBUSTION GAS IN COOLANT

This is a simple test to make. I lets you see if you have a Head Gasket leak and combustion gasses getting into the coolant system. It doesn't always work - but is quick and easy. It had been some time since I did one, so when it took more than a few squeezes on the bulb - I was disappointed. No - PO'ed. It seemed I was getting an indication of the Blue Test Fluid turning YELLOW. That is a sure sign of a blown head gasket.

But, the more I squeezed, the more relaxed I became. I was sucking up the Dex-cool into the test chamber! WHEW.


Huraah! Take Head Gasket off the LIST of things to do!

BUT...

I let the engine idle for about 10-15 minutes. Electric fans doing their job. I now am suspicious that I may have a stuck thermostat. As I let the engine temp (gauge on dash) rise to 215-218, I recorded the upper and lower radiator hoses. Upper Hose read 168F, and the Lower 105F. That is a pretty big delta, so I am expecting a thermostat problem. It doesnt rule out a water pump, but both jobs call for draining the system. So, I'm moving closer to ordering a waterpump. I already have a new thermostat.

[booster]

What conditions did the overheat occur in? The 4L80E units are prone to overheating in tough conditions like long steep hills or sever stop and go.

[peteco]

A concern on replacing the water pump: you don't know what quality you will get with a new pump, even OEM. So many new parts are of lesser quality than those of years ago, as many are not made in US any more. Even US made ones may be of lesser quality as the push for cost cutting has reached far into many areas. I think the original pump in the 6.0 is very good quality and not known for failures. I think you should stay with it unless it shows evidence of impending failure.

[phantomjock]

booster-

Just "pushing it" in the heat on a back range road. No hills just a bunch of ruts. Motive was to get a "qualitative" feel [butt sensor] before the suspension effort. Then the heat rise. Not towing, but that will be th emajor effort of this wvehicle. So at some point I'll work in a transmission cooler enhancement too.

peteco -

All copied. And very good advice. Tomorrow is "check the cabin heat." If it is not heating - then the problem should clearly be the thermostat. I'll do that and flush the radiator and heater, etc. and reassemble. I'm going to pulse the Chevy forums on waterpump recommendations too for data. I note at least one user got only 30K with the cheap replacements!

While I have no indication of impending waterpump failure, I'm trying to eliminate all possible factors and build a reasonable work plan. But then again, plans can go sideways too!

Cheers - Jim

[booster]

Originally Posted by phantomjock

booster-

Just "pushing it" in the heat on a back range road. No hills just a bunch of ruts. Motive was to get a "qualitative" feel [butt sensor] before the suspension effort. Then the heat rise. Not towing, but that will be th emajor effort of this wvehicle. So at some point I'll work in a transmission cooler enhancement too.

peteco -

All copied. And very good advice. Tomorrow is "check the cabin heat." If it is not heating - then the problem should clearly be the thermostat. I'll do that and flush the radiator and heater, etc. and reassemble. I'm going to pulse the Chevy forums on waterpump recommendations too for data. I note at least one user got only 30K with the cheap replacements!

While I have no indication of impending waterpump failure, I'm trying to eliminate all possible factors and build a reasonable work plan. But then again, plans can go sideways too!

Cheers - Jim

When you pull the old waterpump, you may find the impeller is a big ball of rust. Think rust that looks like it was pumping salt water. That is what the one on my 96 Roadmaster looked liked. Based on what I saw come out of the knock sensor holes, nothing, I new it had or had in the past, the dreaded GM Dexcool sludge issue. I had to poke out a hole in it to even get the block to drain. I was suspicious when I got it as it had a new radiator in it.


I don't know if it has been improved much or not, but historically when it gets too old the PH changes and it starts doing galvanic corrosion between the metals in the engine, causing the "rusty" looking sludge and surfaces.


I changed our van over to GO5 style antifreeze even before the warranty was up on it, and the Buick as soon as I got it and found the issues.


If you were on a rutty road the trans was probably in a gear/rpm combo that had the converter unlocked, and that is an almost certain way to get them to overheat.



Since you are going to tow, you might want to just switch to the previous generation 8.1/454 engine radiator. It takes a bit of a mod, but not bad at all and the cooling gets much better at speed, not as much at low speeds/unlocked converter.

[phantomjock]

booster -
I figured you had been down this track before. Good advise on the radiator mod and the waterpump check. I really suspect the thermostat and will confirm today. And, your experience leads me to a next step. I will remove the waterpump and give it look over. Replacement would still be an option. I'll need to some more research there.

Cheers - Jim

[phantomjock]

Working the issues. So far have drained and flushed the radiator. Pleasing results - no nasty sludge. Some crud in the drained fluid from the radiator and block. Next will flush the block and pull the water pump. Broke a bolt on the thermostat housing - may replace the pump after all, and put the OEM in reserve. Will know after I flush the block and remove the pump.


I did spend a luttle time creating a Relationship Diagram of the Causes, Symptoms, Parts, and Responsible Parties. It may be helpful to others. At least if as an operator, you observe some of the Symptoms, you might find some use in identifying the potential problem area - before an overheat!




OOPS - Just noticed! I forgot the Cooling Fan! This is a problem I'll add to a revision on the diagram. It would be on the Owner/Operator side.

There is a challenge with a stock setup - you'll have no way of knowing until you get the overheat indication or CEL, and pull over. You could note the fan not turning - assuming you still have the engine running. With my electric fans, my "Mod" will be 2 small 12v dash LEDs to indicate "Power-On." It won't guarantee the fans are running, but that there is power to them. There is always a possibility the thermostat relay could go out and the fans lose power and stop. They are "spared."

Cheers - Jim

[phantomjock]

Our van is back down on all 4 wheels! Its been hotter than hell in the driveway with Florida sun, but the rain has been off and let me work pretty straight through.

As a summary, there will be some repetitition of previous posts.

I followed my "analytic" of possible causes of overheating. First, I pressure tested for leaks. There were no obvious drips, but a leaking head gasket or bad radiator cap can contribute. The pressure test past with flying colors - See earlier post # 1.

Next, I checked for a head gasket leak. For this I used a Combustion Gas Tester. Post #4. With that passed, I drained the radiator and begin flushing. The initial drain looked pretty good. I reviewed all the maintenance records, and could find no indication of a radiator drain or coolant flush. My motivation to begin this effort after a minor overheat.

I did a complete flush of radiator, heater core, and engine. This was followed with a "super-flush" using water and compressed air and a flush concentrate That got most of the darker coolant out. Fortunately no "clots," and other than a small amout of debris, no large amount of rust, trash, etc. to speak of.

Next, I replaced loaded up the parts cannon and commenced firing. I replaced the waterpump, thermostat, hoses, and Engine Coolant Sensor, and a new radiator cap for good measure. I also installed a thermostat fan controller and digital water temperature port inline in the radiator hose. That left me to do a system pressure test - it passed! Then, I setup for a vacuum pull-and-fill technique. Three complete flushes following the earlier super-flush--2 with under sink RO water, then 1 full flush with distilled water. [16 quarts is a lot of liquid - I used over 12 gallons of water in the flushing process!] The product got clearer with each flush. Finally, I filled the system with coolant. I will check and adjust the concentration after a bit of test driving.

Only remaining task under the hood is to mount and wire in the electronics, fuses, relays, etc for the thermostat control for the electric fans. The unit I previously installed measures the activation temperature at the radiator fins (direct contact). I am now opting for an approach measuring the temperature before reaching the radiator. This will ensure the fans activate and begin cooling based on coolant temperature. The sensor is replacable, and I have the clamps to minimize coolant loss if I choode to change the temperature.

Next effort was the "Moderate Lift" of the front and rear, and installing Sumo-Springs. The front was a bit of a struggle, but when I got the technique sorted out the second was a bit easier. I found it useful to drop the ARB (Sway Bay) to ease working the lower A-Arms. The bushings were shot - so they were replaced - "While-I-Am-At-It." The bump stops were no doubt OEM and due replacement: Trick I used to help align the Sumo Spring with the pocket, was a set of wedges. The lower A-Arm has a slope and they helped better position the Sumo Spring. Then a simple raise the A-Arm with the floor jack, pushing the Sumo Spring into position while helping along with a flat bar stock.

The rear was more of a challenge. But a phone call the the builder was very rewarding and I had both sides done in 2 hours or less - after wrestling with them for a day and a half. Techniques he shared included; removing the shocks from axle, and pulling the axle into alignment with the spacer, using a rachet strap. Piece of Cake! Like I knew what I was doing. One side was pull forward, the other aft.

Open task item: Double check the torque on all fasteners, and go for a test drive and a rear alignment check. Then a little trip in a week or so.

Final measurements:

PRE-LIFT FRONT Left 35 Right 35
PRE-LIFT REAR Left 34.75 Right 38

POST-LIFT FRONT Left 38 Right 38 POST-LIFT REAR Left 38 Right 38

I could have taken the van to a shop and had all this done and just written a sizeable check. But for the price of a "quickie lube" radiator flush (not the whole system) and an oil change, I gathered the "speciality" tools for the job. Now, I am ready to take on the next vehicle in my stable when due.

Cheers - Jim

[booster]

That is a lot of water from flushing, they are so picky around here on that we are supposed to catch it all for recycling, which is a real limitation. Of course it is needed as we all are on well water and don't need the antifreeze seeping into the aquifir.


Did you happen to take a look at the upper control arm position with the front suspension at full drop, stopped by the shock travel?


I ask because when I tested the Bill Erb springs in our van we were about the same height you are at and in full drop we were perilously close to upper arms hitting van frame. There have been many GM pickups that bent control arms that way when overlifted from what I read when I looked into it.

[phantomjock]

Regarding the capture of the flush. Yes, it is a LOT of water and I caught all (maybe lost about 1 cup) and transported it to the recycle facility. We don't just have the ground water and the aquifir to be concerned about, but all the run-off winds up in our bay and then the Gulf!

I didn't check the upper (and lower) arm travel, but will definately do that. I might run a video from one of my data cams and get some real footage of the modification in action. I'll have to rig something up, but it is a project I have on "the list" for the race car too.

(thanks for adding to my list!)

Cheers - Jim

As an aside, maybe the better way to lift, is thicker body spacers. Getting a couple of inches could be difficult, but could get maybe 1 inch. Too much to consider.

[phantomjock]

As I got ready to do the cooling system, I was currious as to "why" not to use Tap Water? A quick review of some literature, it appears the main problem might be Flouride in the water system. Flouride and Aluminum can co-exist, but as coolant ages and breaks down, it becomes more aciditc. This creates a solution, that becomes a problem. The Flouride (in Tap Water) and slightly acidic coolant, attacks the aluminum bits of the radiator, welds, etc.. This situation (acidic solution, flouride, and aluminum, results in aluminum corrosion.

Add any minor amount of stray current and you could be seeking a radiator replacement. I was suspect of the long time admonition regarding not to use tap water in a cooling system, which is why I chose to run large quantities of RO water through the system with the final flush of distilled water.

While I am no metalurgist, I did take that course in undergrad, so the correlation and conclusion sounds reasonable. I thought the process I used could use a little more explanation. Hope that all makes sense.

Cheers - Jim

[booster]

Originally Posted by phantomjock

As I got ready to do the cooling system, I was currious as to "why" not to use Tap Water? A quick review of some literature, it appears the main problem might be Flouride in the water system. Flouride and Aluminum can co-exist, but as coolant ages and breaks down, it becomes more aciditc. This creates a solution, that becomes a problem. The Flouride (in Tap Water) and slightly acidic coolant, attacks the aluminum bits of the radiator, welds, etc.. This situation (acidic solution, flouride, and aluminum, results in aluminum corrosion.

Add any minor amount of stray current and you could be seeking a radiator replacement. I was suspect of the long time admonition regarding not to use tap water in a cooling system, which is why I chose to run large quantities of RO water through the system with the final flush of distilled water.

While I am no metalurgist, I did take that course in undergrad, so the correlation and conclusion sounds reasonable. I thought the process I used could use a little more explanation. Hope that all makes sense.

Cheers - Jim

The whole cooling system being electrolyte is not new to GM products as it appears from what I have read in the past to be one of the reasons Dexcool got it's well earned, IMO, reputation. It may have been fixed now, at least somewhat but maybe more, by a reformulation.


You probably can still find the voltmeter test instructions to determine if you Dexcool has gone to the darkside and is going to corrode your engine's innards shortly.


This the first time I have heard of the fluoride issue. The major concerns about non distilled hard water mineral deposits and reduced boiling points do to dissolved solids,

[phantomjock]

Clearly the disolved solids are also pulled out of an RO flitering system, along with most of the floridated and chlorinated (city/county-not well) water. I'll have to do a an electrolytic check too. Good call. Something that can be monitored --"active involvement," rather than time based maintenance.

This from Motor Trend - regarding stray current checks may suggest a perscription rather than flush every 5 years/50K:

With the engine off connect the meter's negative lead to the negative battery post dangle the positive lead into the coolant with the engine off (this is easier with a copper tube on the end of an alligator clip and will give you the most accurate reading). A reading of 3/10 (0.300V) of a volt with the engine off is considered acceptable; anything over that can cause damage and indicates the antifreeze is holding a charge and should be thoroughly flushed.

Next start the engine with all electrical accessories off and note the voltage. Bring the engine rpm up to approximately 1,500 to 2,000 and note the voltage again. Now with the engine at the same rpm turn each electrical component in the car on and off. If there is a voltage spike with any component it is most likely improperly grounded.

Keep in mind overcharging can also be a source of stray voltage. Output above 14.7 V is excessive and repairs should be made.

emphasis mine... Seems like it would be easy enough to put into a pre-stow checklist. Also, something to be aware of with a HAM Radio rig in transmit mode.

Cheers - Jim