Camper conversion vs. major manufacturer

[JennG]

I am wondering whether to by a conversion vs. a regular van camper. All the major manufacturers are building the smaller, stealth looking ones, which of course are more expensive than the self built but I wonder if they really are better, there was an interesting article (unlike another website's forum that shall not be named I will put the article here..https://www.google.com/search?q=deal...hrome&ie=UTF-8) and felt well maybe the conversions are better as they are hand built but then again as the cheaper ones are on older chassis, they might not have the safety standards required by law that the major companies have to adhere to "again the link here as it's not the w.t.s.n.b.n" https://rvownerhq.com/what-is-the-safest-rv-to-drive//.

IF class B RVs are built on a standard work van chassis do they NOW also have all the same high-tech safety features that are now being included by the manufactures of those work vans. [/I][/B][/I][/B][/U][/B][/I] Pleasureway are supposedly not mass produced but are quite high for their basic stripped down Tofino model. (This came of sudden interest to me after i saw a youtube video from a mortician who was talking about what she wouldn't do and listed that staying in an RV was as dangerous along with skydiving, saying it was a tin can, but again are the chassis the same on vans and RV and have the same safety standards, blind assist, collision avoidance, extra airbags and crumple zones, don't need to worry I guess.

And also if I buy a conversion I may not have customer support or manuals which has the schematics to help a mechanic do repairs so would that create problems? Also no support groups online or on FB to give advice?

Am I worrying needlessly, has anyone had a DIY conversion van and they are done well enough (if a newer vehicle and build) that I don't need to worry about manual, customer support, safety ( as I said they have the same safety standards as cargo/passenger vans of the same year??) and nobody else who can give advice online?

[Rlum]

Originally Posted by JennG

I am wondering whether to by a conversion vs. a regular van camper. All the major manufacturers are building the smaller, stealth looking ones, which of course are more expensive than the self built but I wonder if they really are better, there was an interesting article (unlike another website's forum that shall not be named I will put the article here..https://www.google.com/search?q=deal...hrome&ie=UTF-8) and felt well maybe the conversions are better as they are hand built but then again as the cheaper ones are on older chassis, they might not have the safety standards required by law that the major companies have to adhere to "again the link here as it's not the w.t.s.n.b.n" https://rvownerhq.com/what-is-the-safest-rv-to-drive//.

IF class B RVs are built on a standard work van chassis do they NOW also have all the same high-tech safety features that are now being included by the manufactures of those work vans. [/I][/B][/I][/B][/U][/B][/I] Pleasureway are supposedly not mass produced but are quite high for their basic stripped down Tofino model. (This came of sudden interest to me after i saw a youtube video from a mortician who was talking about what she wouldn't do and listed that staying in an RV was as dangerous along with skydiving, saying it was a tin can, but again are the chassis the same on vans and RV and have the same safety standards, blind assist, collision avoidance, extra airbags and crumple zones, don't need to worry I guess.

And also if I buy a conversion I may not have customer support or manuals which has the schematics to help a mechanic do repairs so would that create problems? Also no support groups online or on FB to give advice?

Am I worrying needlessly, has anyone had a DIY conversion van and they are done well enough (if a newer vehicle and build) that I don't need to worry about manual, customer support, safety ( as I said they have the same safety standards as cargo/passenger vans of the same year??) and nobody else who can give advice online?

DIY or just camping. It will depend on your application of the van? Are you planning on living in it full time? If not, DIY is certainly a choice. One issues is insulation. Look at Embassy RV. They really/truly know and do this extremely well. Many people buy their vans to travel/live in full time. Insulation for 4 seasons is pretty much done once only. Not really a do over. Most other items can be retrofitted.

[MsNomer]

OP, could you give us a link to the mortician's video?

[folivier]

My opinion is if you're handy and take the time to design and make certain that you follow all safety regs, then you could end up with a better functioning camper van. For your purposes. But when you decide to sell it will be important to the buyer to see documentation of your superior build. I've seen some amazing builds on other forums. And some not so good.
Just don't under estimate the time involved to do this.

[Jon in AZ]

Maybe not the most important consideration, but I believe insurers will view them differently. A traditional full camper build will be registered as a Winnebago or a Thor and insured as a motorhome. A DIY or small shop conversion will be registered as a Promaster or a Sprinter and insured as a van.

RV insurance is typically cheaper relative to value, because it is assumed to be an occasional use vehicle. Not sure how regular vehicle insurance on a van might handle the value of the conversion in the event of a claim, or whether you can have the vehicle reclassified as a motorhome.

I’m actually not sure about any of this, just going off previous discussions and throwing it out for comment and correction.

[mkguitar]

There is nothing in my Pleasure Way which I ( or a neighbor) could have done better.


and if there is an issue or question, someone else may say "I have one of those too, the way to fix it is..."


mike

[Punkinhead]

All RVs, whether home built or factory built, need maintenance. If you aren't handy then buying a home built could be a very unpleasant experience. You also aren't going to be in a good position to know what is a good build vs. a terrible one. Are you knowledgeable enough to recognize a dangerous wiring job without proper fuses, improper gage wire, unreliable splices, and cheap Chinese components bought off Ebay? I've seen builds that are full of wood, which is heavy and absorbs moisture. Has the vehicle been weighed and compared to the chassis manufacturer's GVWR? Did the builder add a bench seat with seat belts without doing proper pull tests? How will you know they properly sealed all those holes in the roof and sides to install vents/AC/etc? Did they prime the bare metal after cutting the holes so they don't rust over time? Did they insulate with fiberglass, which smooshes down and loses it's insulation value plus absorbs and holds moisture leading to mold and rust?

If you're knowledgeable enough to answer questions like this then you might get a good deal. Or you might inherit a nightmare from some 20 year old #vanlife kid who hacked it together for a Youtube video.

[jrobe]

There are really 3 choices with Class B's. There are the major builders (Winnebago, Roadtrek, Pleasureway, etc.) which is like buying a ready built home where someone else decided on the floorpan and almost all the options. Then there are the DIY vans where someone built his own RV from scratch in his backyard. Then there is the 3rd option of using a custom builder where you can design the RV from scratch with their guidance and then pick all the options but yet have the RV built by a professional (Advanced RV, Sportsmobile and a few others).

From a safety standpoint, the first and third choices should be identical and the DIY option certainly can be identical if the builder does it correctly.

For us the 3rd option was the only good choice. We couldn't find a Class B from one of the major builders that had the floorpan and options that we really wanted. I would rather design my own home from scratch and then let a professional build it. From a cost standpoint, our custom RV ended up costing a little less than buying a ready made RV from a dealer. We have definitely had better customer support with this option than we would ever get from most RV dealers.

[hbn7hj]

To me the major difference between DYI is the plumbing system. The underfloor tanks necessary for a black water, gray water, and freshwater systems are custom fit and very expensive or impossible for a one off.

The under floor tanks in a Roadtrek 190 are an example. They are exceptionally complex and anything but rectangular.

If you don’t need under floor tanks then DIY has a lot going for it. We can do the rest.

[Urlauber]

Well there's that thing called Economy of Scale...
Can get a bit distorted, like in the last 2 years with high demand and some supply issues.

But, generally speaking, the big guys who build thousands of units will be able to get their parts cheaper, and their assemblies more efficient.
No doubt there are some small converters which will be better able to customize to ones particular wishes. I do doubt it will be cheaper for something comparable though.

I was in a similar situation and checked with some custom conversion places, and after adding in the cost of the vehicle (for ex Metris Westy), it came out to be as expensive as a Tofino, and much less customizable than expected.

They all need to make money... If you can find a floor plan to suit your needs I think going with one of the bigger brands may have its advantages.

[@Michael]

Originally Posted by jrobe

There are really 3 choices with Class B's. There are the major builders (Winnebago, Roadtrek, Pleasureway, etc.) which is like buying a ready built home where someone else decided on the floorpan and almost all the options. Then there are the DIY vans where someone built his own RV from scratch in his backyard. Then there is the 3rd option of using a custom builder where you can design the RV from scratch with their guidance and then pick all the options but yet have the RV built by a professional (Advanced RV, Sportsmobile and a few others).

From a safety standpoint, the first and third choices should be identical and the DIY option certainly can be identical if the builder does it correctly.

For us the 3rd option was the only good choice. We couldn't find a Class B from one of the major builders that had the floorpan and options that we really wanted. I would rather design my own home from scratch and then let a professional build it. From a cost standpoint, our custom RV ended up costing a little less than buying a ready made RV from a dealer. We have definitely had better customer support with this option than we would ever get from most RV dealers.

To build on this, in the case of custom conversions, the choice of builder is very important. I've seen 'professional' custom builds that were pretty amateur, and recently ran across a 'professional' bus conversion company that is building horribly amateurish, unsafe bus conversions.

[avanti]

As I see it, the path from newbie to connoisseur is one of a progression from broad strokes to nuance. We are about to build our third rig. The first one was like "Hey, let's get an RV...". The second one was "Lets find the right floorplan and an upfitter that does better work than Airstream..." This time it's "We will tolerate zero stupidity and want as much cleverness and refinement as we can get."

There are only about five sensible floorpans in the B-van world. The rest is detail and quality. Our new rig is going to be vastly different from our current one, but a lot of people would conclude that they were pretty much the same. Beyond ending the nightmare of Sprinter/diesel ownership (which I admit is the driving force), everything else is nuance. And the one thing you don't get from any mass-production van is nuance.

That is why we are going with a high-quality custom upfitter this time.

[folivier]

Another thing that might or might not be an issue is some campgrounds might not allow a "home built" camper van. Just as skoolies aren't welcome in some campgrounds you don't want this problem.

[MsNomer]

DIY is the only way I could get what I wanted, because I would not be able to afford a quality custom builder. This is not available any other way.



Safety-wise, I believe my van is as safe as any other built on the 2014 PM van. No upper cabinetry. Fridge caged in steel frame.

[hbn7hj]

This was 12 years ago. We were staying at our $15/night New York City camp site at Floyd Bennett Field (Long Island really) and a Canadian licensed Chevy Express hi-top converted work van pulled in.

We visited. He was quite proud of what he had built on a new chassis for a total cost of $30,000. He didn’t have near the build I did with no water or heating system. How much did you pay?, he asks. $30,000 with 44,000 miles on it. It got silent as it was very apparent that I got the better deal with a 2003 Roadtrek 190 Popular.

It all depends on what you can build. Webasto has solved the furnace problem. I’d even prefer one over the propane Suburban. Nothing can beat the professional water system with it’s sit down toilet, shower, and water heater. It all depends on your skills.

That is a nice picture of Msnomer’s interior and she does a very good job of sharing her knowledge. My compliments to a job well done.

[GeorgeRa]

I converted Sprinter Van in 2013, still using it and no plans to change it.

My perspective on DIY vs Commercially built, not Mom and Pop shops.

- Variability in design and quality varies a lot with DIY. DIY folks can’t effort prototypes, I substituted prototype(s) with CAD work for mechanical, electrical and plumbing and ended up with a very few mistakes. Some DIY conversions are higher quality than commercial ones, some not.

- Well-engineered insulations are more common with DYI folks than commercially converted vans. 59.9 % of DIY folks, having insulation, use Thinsulate. There were and still are good engineering discussion on insulation on the Sprinter Forum. Using reflective material with air gap is common among know how folks on the Sprinter forum. Using insulation between two water vaper barriers and reflective material without air gap are good litmus papers for lack of engineering understanding, and I have seen it in commercial conversions. https://sprinter-source.com/forums/i...13#post-964782

- Commercially converted vans are always finished, this is not the case with DIY folks. Bulk of DIY approach to finish is asymptotic, it never ends. I started my conversion in 2013, van was “campabale” in just a few months, but it took a few more years to be done with it.

- Some good engineering thinking often comes from folks writing up about their experience on for example Sprinter forums. I gained a lot of know how from some folks in that forum, free engineering coaching. As a matter of fact, I have seen often better engineering from DIY community than commerce. A few examples:

Thinsulate, some folks just begin to use it in the commercial world.

DC>AC>DC charging, Dave took a lot of beating for this concept but it is resurfacing know.

80/20, some small output folks are adapting it but it is hugely popular in DIY community.

SmartPlug mounted on the hitch, I added one in 2013 and since then I have seen a lot of folks adapting that exact design including ARV. https://sprinter-source.com/forums/i...20#post-273291

Southco M1 drawers and cabinet door latches, Dave started in 2012, I copied them in 2013 and now even Revel is using them.

Would I venture to another DIY project, yes if we would be in similar situation as we were in 2013, we couldn’t find commercially available camper vans with a Westfalia like layout. The closest one was from Safari Condo in Canada. Today, there are more options available, there is Ford and Fiat, and a few conversions are close enough to Westfalia like layouts.

[jrobe]

I agree with GeorgeRa. If someone is willing to take the time to do their homework and then do careful work, a DIYer has definite advantages. I insulated my van with thinsulate and it took a long time to do it well. There is no chance that any of the big builders would do that.

The big builders also are very slow to adopt new technologies. We would have bought a Pleasureway Ascent based on the floorplan and build quality but they are still using LP generators, LP furnaces and only recently stopped using LP refrigerators as examples. The Sprinters that they buy have built in mounts for a second alternator and they still haven't figured out how to use it to charge their batteries.

[parkgt]

Originally Posted by jrobe

but they are still using LP generators, LP furnaces and only recently stopped using LP refrigerators as examples. The Sprinters that they buy have built in mounts for a second alternator and they still haven't figured out how to use it to charge their batteries.

Can't imagine a downside to having a LP generator available with or without a second alternator.

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by parkgt

Can't imagine a downside to having a LP generator available with or without a second alternator.

Mainly weight. Noise also but with lithium batteries they don’t run very long.

I will always have a generator. For me they are exceptionally useful. Charging rate of 120 amps and A/C overnight in the summer heat at a place that allows the noise. A noon rest stop in the heat of the summer for lunch and a nap.

I would insist on a generator that uses vehicle fuel, not LP.

[Jon in AZ]

A lot depends on what you need and want in terms of amenities.

If you’re looking for a fully integrated, self-contained RV, then you probably want a mass market build ($$-$$$) or a full custom build by a master upfitter ($$$$). If you can’t afford new, then used is always an option. Supply was very tight last year, but seems to be loosening up now.

While it’s possible to get that with DIY, it requires a high level of skill in multiple trades, time, tools, and workspace, and it still may not have the level of sophistication of a manufactured unit- think custom molded fiberglass bath enclosures and holding tanks as already mentioned

If you’re looking for a more rustic camper van with fewer amenities, then DIY or modular drop in conversion kits make sense. The latter can usually be installed by the maker if your DIY skills aren’t up to the task, but realize they aren’t subject to the same level of scrutiny vis-a-vis quality and safety as large manufacturers, so be cautious, get references, ask questions, etc. You will have to procure your own van, which can be difficult right now as they’re in high demand by delivery fleets and RV upfitters, in addition to the traditional tradesmen.

Cost can end up being comparable to a used manufactured unit, but you will have exactly what you want and no more. Few amenities also means few things to fix, lighter weight, more open layout… However, when you’re ready to move on, the manufactured unit will have name recognition, broader appeal, and generally better resale.

No right answer, just what’s right for you.