I'm now scared to death of the 4so tranny in the 2004 RT 190P.

[Atlee Hokie]

I just finished reading a couple of different long threads on overheating transmissions including all the information supplied by @Booster.

At this point, I'm a little skittish about pursuing any model that has the 4sp. If I were to stay on the east coast I'd be OK, but if I take one more big trip out to Yellowstone and the Tetons I'd be on pins and needles.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Atlee Hokie

I just finished reading a couple of different long threads on overheating transmissions including all the information supplied by @Booster.

At this point, I'm a little skittish about pursuing any model that has the 4sp. If I were to stay on the east coast I'd be OK, but if I take one more big trip out to Yellowstone and the Tetons I'd be on pins and needles.

I think you need to put the whole thing in perspective a bit.


Yes, the 4 speed is prone to over heating under certain conditions, but many folks survive OK without doing anything special.


Climbs like the Eisenhower can be done OK with 4 speed in 3rd gear and the rpms up, for instance. The major issues can come for trying to climb in too high a gear to get the transmission into lockup which is based on rpm.


There are a few times that you get into a spot where you can't get enough power to climb and be in a low enough gear to keep the rpm up, however, and that is what most of the discussions are focused on. For us it was the climb from about 5K feet to 11K feet. You can pull it fine in 3rd gear but the trans won't lock up and you will get hot. If you go to second gear you can get to lockup rpm, but tough to get enough speed to not hold up traffic without a lot of engine noise from rpm and that can make folks uncomfortable.


The previous can be got around in second gear but on one hill up an attraction we had a long, first gear needed to move the van hill. The trans does not lockup, ever, in low gear so there is that issue, plus it was programmed to still shift to second gear if you let off the throttle. When I did that to get around a tight curve, it shifted and just stopped and wouldn't move until totally not moving to get it back in low gear. These are very rare occurrences but do happen to some people. Most can be programmed out of the transmission with a tuner as we have done, but most folks get by fine without doing that.


The 2010 and up 6 speeds lock up nearly all the time except for in low gear when they never lock, but low in them is so low you don't need it to climb as second gear is very low also and locks up. They don't have the heat issues from all the information we have seen over the years.


Is it worth it to hold out for a 6 speed? I can't say as that would be determined by where you go, how often, and your budget.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by booster

I think you need to put the whole thing in perspective a bit.


Yes, the 4 speed is prone to over heating under certain conditions, but many folks survive OK without doing anything special.


Climbs like the Eisenhower can be done OK with 4 speed in 3rd gear and the rpms up, for instance. The major issues can come for trying to climb in too high a gear to get the transmission into lockup which is based on rpm.


There are a few times that you get into a spot where you can't get enough power to climb and be in a low enough gear to keep the rpm up, however, and that is what most of the discussions are focused on. For us it was the climb from about 5K feet to 11K feet. You can pull it fine in 3rd gear but the trans won't lock up and you will get hot. If you go to second gear you can get to lockup rpm, but tough to get enough speed to not hold up traffic without a lot of engine noise from rpm and that can make folks uncomfortable.


The previous can be got around in second gear but on one hill up an attraction we had a long, first gear needed to move the van hill. The trans does not lockup, ever, in low gear so there is that issue, plus it was programmed to still shift to second gear if you let off the throttle. When I did that to get around a tight curve, it shifted and just stopped and wouldn't move until totally not moving to get it back in low gear. These are very rare occurrences but do happen to some people. Most can be programmed out of the transmission with a tuner as we have done, but most folks get by fine without doing that.


The 2010 and up 6 speeds lock up nearly all the time except for in low gear when they never lock, but low in them is so low you don't need it to climb as second gear is very low also and locks up. They don't have the heat issues from all the information we have seen over the years.


Is it worth it to hold out for a 6 speed? I can't say as that would be determined by where you go, how often, and your budget.

I have 125K miles with many in mountains during summer and fall months. My experience with an 05/04 is the same as boosters. If I were to use booster's last sentence, I would buy another one.

There are not that many climbs from 5 to 11K feet in warm/hot weather in my case. So I loose 10 minutes. Or that many steep switch backs at low speeds. I think of it as simply time lost vs a 6 speed.

[Atlee Hokie]

Originally Posted by booster

I think you need to put the whole thing in perspective a bit.


Yes, the 4 speed is prone to over heating under certain conditions, but many folks survive OK without doing anything special.


Climbs like the Eisenhower can be done OK with 4 speed in 3rd gear and the rpms up, for instance. The major issues can come for trying to climb in too high a gear to get the transmission into lockup which is based on rpm.


There are a few times that you get into a spot where you can't get enough power to climb and be in a low enough gear to keep the rpm up, however, and that is what most of the discussions are focused on. For us it was the climb from about 5K feet to 11K feet. You can pull it fine in 3rd gear but the trans won't lock up and you will get hot. If you go to second gear you can get to lockup rpm, but tough to get enough speed to not hold up traffic without a lot of engine noise from rpm and that can make folks uncomfortable.


The previous can be got around in second gear but on one hill up an attraction we had a long, first gear needed to move the van hill. The trans does not lockup, ever, in low gear so there is that issue, plus it was programmed to still shift to second gear if you let off the throttle. When I did that to get around a tight curve, it shifted and just stopped and wouldn't move until totally not moving to get it back in low gear. These are very rare occurrences but do happen to some people. Most can be programmed out of the transmission with a tuner as we have done, but most folks get by fine without doing that.


The 2010 and up 6 speeds lock up nearly all the time except for in low gear when they never lock, but low in them is so low you don't need it to climb as second gear is very low also and locks up. They don't have the heat issues from all the information we have seen over the years.


Is it worth it to hold out for a 6 speed? I can't say as that would be determined by where you go, how often, and your budget.

Thanks for the reply. My budget doesn't allow for a 2010 or newer, so it's either what I looking at or stay with what I have.

The truth be known I would not be going up a road like the one in RMNP. I tried it once but in a station wagon and much younger. Had 2 kids who were 6 and 8. The road I was on had little shoulder, no guard rail, and 500' to 1,000' drops. I was not a happy "camper" to say the least.

[Doneworking]

Booster covers the subject well, as usual.

We have traveled in the mountains most summers since 2007 in our RT 210P and just adjust for a long climb or a really steep climb. I have never really given it much thought, I just adjust my speed and gears and don't worry about things.

How many miles out of every thousand you drive will actually challenge a four speed? Not many for most of us. Is a six speed better? Yes it is for a lot of reasons but a four speed is not a deal killer.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Doneworking

Booster covers the subject well, as usual.

We have traveled in the mountains most summers since 2007 in our RT 210P and just adjust for a long climb or a really steep climb. I have never really given it much thought, I just adjust my speed and gears and don't worry about things.

How many miles out of every thousand you drive will actually challenge a four speed? Not many for most of us. Is a six speed better? Yes it is for a lot of reasons but a four speed is not a deal killer.

Yep, you quite a few others with 4 speeds.


I think if I boil it down to what conditions are the hardest to overcome with a 4 speed they would be two basic types of climbs.


1. Any climb that has to be done in low gear because there is not enough power available at the lower rpm second gear would give. No lockup, not a lot of choice of rpm as the road dictates that. These are very steeep and long hills, and we have run across only one in 16 years we have had our van.


2. A climb that you can use second gear, but the road itself limits you speed so you can't get enough rpm to lockup the converter (probably around 3500 rpm). These are more common, particularly in the Rockies if you are going up to mountain summits. We may have found 7-8 or so of them over the years. Moderately steep, but curvy enough to limit speed a bunch with lots of on/off of the throttle.



In the posts about the 4 speeds and how to reprogram them there are data tables that show the lockup points for the transmission. They are in speed, not rpm, and are based on the typical class b that has 4:10 rear gears.

[peteco]

2006 Roadtrek 210P. So I'm a bit heavier than the Roadtrek 190. 160k miles. Drove from Virginia to California twice. Yellowstone and Tetons no problem. Rockies biggest challenge, but I had no issues. I do turn on the heater if I notice the temperature going up. Get a Scangage to keep track of temps. Make sure you have a transmission cooler. They are easy to install or to get installed if you don't have one. I change fluid and filter every 50k.

My readings indicate the 4-speed is a bit more reliable than the 6-speed, though both have a good track record. I would not hesitate to get another Roadtrek with the 4-speed.

[jojobafanzi]

Originally Posted by Atlee Hokie

I just finished reading a couple of different long threads on overheating transmissions including all the information supplied by @Booster.

At this point, I'm a little skittish about pursuing any model that has the 4sp. If I were to stay on the east coast I'd be OK, but if I take one more big trip out to Yellowstone and the Tetons I'd be on pins and needles.

I wouldn't worry too much about overheating an automatic transmission. Back in the day when I was into rock crawlers and race cars, we realized the transmission cooling lines were insufficient at best and just installed an aftermarket cooling kit on the transmission pan. If an aftermarket pan was not available that had two bungs welded to it for auxiliary cooling system, we just welded on our own. Installed a extra transmission cooler on the front of the radiator, ran hoses to it and installed an auxiliary fuel oil pump to move the fluid. I think the parts cost less than $200.00 back then. Probably the same now. Only use the pump when you need it so it lasts a long time. Great for tow vehicles and snow plow trucks.

[booster]

If Atlee Hokie does get the Silver anniversary issue, it is listed as having a 10.5" rear axle, so it should also have the factory transmission cooler from the factory as the axle and cooler are what made up the option trailer towing package on the vans.


It is not a huge cooler but certainly will help and probably better than many aftermarket coolers these days that are pretty badly designed in many cases.


As cautious as he seems to be, he should be fine, although I have found that many very cautious users seem to have trouble with the idea that more rpm, lower gear, is going to generate less heat. I have the problem myself, although I totally know better.

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by booster

If Atlee Hokie does get the Silver anniversary issue, it is listed as having a 10.5" rear axle, so it should also have the factory transmission cooler from the factory as the axle and cooler are what made up the option trailer towing package on the vans.

My 1999 RT 170 has the factory transmission cooler. Do Roadtreks have it in some models or years and not in others?

[booster]

Originally Posted by RT-NY

My 1999 RT 170 has the factory transmission cooler. Do Roadtreks have it in some models or years and not in others?

Yours would be a Dodge, I think, so I don't know on them or others than the Chevies 2003 and up.


On the Chevies the only ones that got the trans coolers were those that had the trailer towing option on them. The package included the cooler and very nice to have 10.5" full floating rear axle that is a huge improvement over the stock 9.75" semi floater that most of them got.

[Atlee Hokie]

Originally Posted by booster

If Atlee Hokie does get the Silver anniversary issue, it is listed as having a 10.5" rear axle, so it should also have the factory transmission cooler from the factory as the axle and cooler are what made up the option trailer towing package on the vans.


It is not a huge cooler but certainly will help and probably better than many aftermarket coolers these days that are pretty badly designed in many cases.


As cautious as he seems to be, he should be fine, although I have found that many very cautious users seem to have trouble with the idea that more rpm, lower gear, is going to generate less heat. I have the problem myself, although I totally know better.

I actually do something sort of similar with my current rig. Currently I have a F150 hybrid w/ the 10sp transmission and tow a 24' TT. When I'm towing, I always lock out gears 8, 9, & 10, all overdrive gears. When driving in 7th gear, the rpms usually sits at about 2500. What this does is discourage the turbos from spinning up at the slightest hill as the tranny drops a gear. When the turbos spin, more gas is used.

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by booster

There are a few times that you get into a spot where you can't get enough power to climb and be in a low enough gear to keep the rpm up, however, and that is what most of the discussions are focused on. For us it was the climb from about 5K feet to 11K feet. You can pull it fine in 3rd gear but the trans won't lock up and you will get hot. If you go to second gear you can get to lockup rpm, but tough to get enough speed to not hold up traffic without a lot of engine noise from rpm and that can make folks uncomfortable.

If I understand the discussion here, at about 3500 RPM the transmission will lock up and so run more efficiently and cooler. So when driving up a steep hill, if you keep it at about that RPM in second gear, depending on how steep the hill is, you will slow down a bit, but apart from the fact that you annoy people driviing behind you, taking hills this way is easiest on the transmission. Is this correct?

[booster]

Originally Posted by RT-NY

If I understand the discussion here, at about 3500 RPM the transmission will lock up and so run more efficiently and cooler. So when driving up a steep hill, if you keep it at about that RPM in second gear, depending on how steep the hill is, you will slow down a bit, but apart from the fact that you annoy people driviing behind you, taking hills this way is easiest on the transmission. Is this correct?

You are sort of correct, but we would have to look at the shift and lockup charts to see exactly where those points are, as I don't recall specifically.


In second gear you select the gear to 2 position and it will not shift up from it, which is a good thing.


You will start out and it start in low or first depending on how it programmed and I think ours started in low. So start in low, it shifts to second, but the converter won' lock until it hits a second setting, which is another chart for lock and unlock. Complicating it is that those charts are in mph, not rpm, so you have to convert them to get rpm based on gear ratio of 2nd gear and the rear axle plus tire size. The 3500 is what I think it was for 2nd gear and near full throttle as the points all change also with throttle position. Kind of 3 dimension chess, but once you understand what it is doing it is really pretty easy to get a grasp of.


The problem you can get into if the van may not have enough power to go up the hill fast enough to get to lockup point of the converter, or the speed limit does allow you to go fast enough to get it locked (more likely especially on curvy roads or traffic).


If you are in lock up and slow down, it will stay locked until you get to unlock speed that is set in the program.



All of this documented pretty well in a couple of thread I made while I was doing the learning and testing on our van while reprogramming it. I have screenprints of the shift and lockup charts on there also.



I think I may still have a copy of an Excel program that you can use to find out the speeds in each gear for your setup as the gear ratios and tire sizes can be changed and it calcs it all for you.


If you want to get into it more, I am happy to help all I can. It would probably be best to go to those threads and read them to get a rough idea what is going on and then we can cover the details.



I think seeing how it all works can be very useful even for those the don't intend to reprogram their van so they can know how to work around the weakness of the stock settings.


Odd as it might sound, the factory settings for tow/haul can actually be worse than the normal mode for steep hills.

[RT-NY]

Thanks booster, I'll take a look at the treads.

I am mostly thinking about more or less straight climbs on a 55 or so road. I take it easy up hills like that with this van, thinking not to stress the transmission, but I have always done it by feel. There is certain speed/RPM that feels like it is moving steadily and easily up the hill even if I end up going slower than the speed limit -- if I give it more gas from there it would down shift, rev higher, and go faster, but I prefer to just keep it where it is and take my time up the hill. I am just wondering if what I have been doing in fact is keeping the transmission locked up in second gear -- or now that I think of it, perhaps in third?

[booster]

Originally Posted by RT-NY

Thanks booster, I'll take a look at the treads.

I am mostly thinking about more or less straight climbs on a 55 or so road. I take it easy up hills like that with this van, thinking not to stress the transmission, but I have always done it by feel. There is certain speed/RPM that feels like it is moving steadily and easily up the hill even if I end up going slower than the speed limit -- if I give it more gas from there it would down shift, rev higher, and go faster, but I prefer to just keep it where it is and take my time up the hill. I am just wondering if what I have been doing in fact is keeping the transmission locked up in second gear -- or now that I think of it, perhaps in third?

Here are the shift and lockup points that were in our van stock. I think all the 2003 and up 6.0 engines were this way. 4.8 is probably different and I may have that around also as another member has a 4.8. This is from this thread https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...icks-7158.html






As you can see, it could be very possible you are never locking up on your scenario unless you are over 50mph and near full throttle in second gear. in third you can get lock at lower speeds, but not at the throttle position you are probably using to climb a steep hill.


I do have the Excel spread sheet for rpm vs speed in the various gears and it is settable to other tire and gear sizes. I can't post an Excel file on the forum based on past tries, so if anybody want me to send them a copy just PM me with your email address.


On edit, I did find this in the same thread. It is an older version but shows what it roughly looks like.

[Bud]

I find it interesting that no one at this point in the thread has mentioned DownHill.

I wanted the 6 speed for this, Not Zooming down the mountain at Warp Speed or creeping down in low. Maybe 12 years ago I looked at the gear ratios of both transmissions, and would have paid for that feature for that reason. And more advantages with the 6.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

I find it interesting that no one at this point in the thread has mentioned DownHill.

I wanted the 6 speed for this, Not Zooming down the mountain at Warp Speed or creeping down in low. Maybe 12 years ago I looked at the gear ratios of both transmissions, and would have paid for that feature for that reason. And more advantages with the 6.

Based on the lockup chart above, it looks like you could simulate the downhill pretty easily by copying the stock program into tow/haul or just use tow haul the way it is, but modifying the converter release speed in the gears you want to use down hill. That would make it so the converter would be locked going downhill when you went to tow/haul.


I have ours somewhat that way because I didn't want it going in and out all the time.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

I find it interesting that no one at this point in the thread has mentioned DownHill.

I wanted the 6 speed for this, Not Zooming down the mountain at Warp Speed or creeping down in low. Maybe 12 years ago I looked at the gear ratios of both transmissions, and would have paid for that feature for that reason. And more advantages with the 6.

I just took a look at the programming that was in our 07 6.0 Roadtrek transmission from the factory.


It does appear to have a way to make the torque converter not unlock while decelerating, like going downhill would be. There are two settable ranges for speed at high and low that appear to be so you can get engine braking or get rid of on and off lock unlocking of the converter in varying speed conditions. The low speed on would be to assure the converter unlocks before you get to a to low of rpm to maintain engine running, or such. I did find one user on the HPtuner Q&A forum who used the setting in that way, or at least said he did.


The settings for disable and enable the coasting was, and still is set at 2% throttle to shut off converter and 4% throttle to enable with the high/low speed changing at 45mph. The user said to keep it locked to change the disable (2%) setting to zero for the high speed setting.


This would be a only a couple of minute type change to do for anyone that has an HPtuner and has the license activated on the tuner for the vehicle being modified. Tuner shops have bulk licenses so they can do any vehicle without buying a separate license for it.


I think this also means that, as I thought it might, you could keep it locked by hold the throttle open a bit to keep it from unlocking the converter while going downhill. If you have a Scangauge you could see the throttle position sensor reading so would know when you were at over 4% to keep it activated and locked up. You will be able to tell if locking and unlocking by watching for rpm changes on the Scangauge as you move the throttle position.


Here is the page on the tuner software where you would make the changes. It would be in the table on the far right.