European RV show video

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Do you have direct experience regarding...

Yes. I'm an architect, remember. I've made it a career in investigating construction problems. I was the main architectural investigator of construction issues 15 years for Target stores. Before that I was the Architectural Technical Director for the 5 billion dollar Mall of America in Minnesota. Before that I had my own architectural firm specializing in zero energy homes and designed, cut the mortise and tenon joints and erected this home. That's the house with the triple glazed window and almost zero energy without solar panels. I'm confident of my direct experience.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Yes. I'm an architect, remember. I've made it a career in investigating construction problems. I was the main architectural investigator of construction issues 15 years for Target stores. Before that I was the Architectural Technical Director for the 5 billion dollar Mall of America in Minnesota. Before that I had my own architectural firm specializing in zero energy homes and designed, cut the mortise and tenon joints and erected this home. That's the house with the triple glazed window and almost zero energy without solar panels. I'm confident of my direct experience.

Didn’t see from your post reply to having direct experience with European windows. I questioned your previous statement “Both side and top openings of the European windows are failures in rain.” from where did you source this info. Let’s agree to disagree, enough of this ping pong.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Davydd

As to the cost of Class Bs, I'm trying to wrap my head around how they have gotten to a 100% cost increase in about a decade. I wonder where the cost is in that Winnebago Adventure Van.

I know where my cost is and it was a lot. Advanced RV posted a short video of how they made the stage step at the cab to level out the cab floor. They just posted it on their Facebook and Instagram web sites. That was just one example of a totally custom design not working from existing past work.

I agree about the cost of Class B’s. I paid about $125,000 for my 2013 Airstream Interstate. Today they are $250,000 or more.

Still waiting to see what my Advanced RV will cost.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

I agree about the cost of Class B’s. I paid about $125,000 for my 2013 Airstream Interstate. Today they are $250,000 or more.

Still waiting to see what my Advanced RV will cost.

A lot!

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Didn’t see from your post reply to having direct experience with European windows. I questioned your previous statement “Both side and top openings of the European windows are failures in rain.” from where did you source this info. Let’s agree to disagree, enough of this ping pong.

I told you my opinion with my vast experience in my career vs. your opinion. Do you have those widows? WTF do those windows have anything to do with Class Bs? My opinion too is there is no manufacturer in Europe building Class Bs better or innovative than Advanced RV and probably others. Europe is still stuck on cassette toilets.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I told you my opinion with my vast experience in my career vs. your opinion. Do you have those widows? …………

Yes, 20 years, highly exposed to weather, no leaks.

I'm out.

[MsNomer]

I agree with Davydd as to the lack of imagination in Europe. They've got one basic plan with a myriad of varied details. Walls of stuff on the left and right going down a narrow walkway to a rear bed, converted from dinette if there’s no dinette up front. Not much room for humans.

I agree with George as to the windows. I love them.

[booster]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

I agree with Davydd as to the lack of imagination in Europe. They've got one basic plan with a myriad of varied details. Walls of stuff on the left and right going down a narrow walkway to a rear bed, converted from dinette if there’s no dinette up front. Not much room for humans.

I agree with George as to the windows. I love them.

Are those windows glass or Lexan?

[Davydd]

I'll grant you the dual operation of those windows, sill and side, is innovative and unique but I am saying, and read what I said, they are mainly configured all wrong in-swinging into the room for many reasons.

...and as I mentioned my windows have lasted over 34 years with no leaks and without maintenance including not having to paint them. America can make great windows too.

All windows have design faults. I think the biggest one for that window is that in-swinging windows kills the space in a room the width of the window at a minimum and maybe space to get at them. I previously mentioned a table with a lamp is common. So are sofas and chairs and tables with plants up against windows. You have problem as well with doors, but every window in the house? Dumb decision for innovation. So why did you bring those windows up? Europhobia in everything is superior across the pond? You surely will not put that concept in a Class B.

[MsNomer]

Originally Posted by booster

Are those windows glass or Lexan?

The windows referenced are residential glass windows that open inward with hinges both on the bottom and on the side.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

I agree with Davydd as to the lack of imagination in Europe. They've got one basic plan with a myriad of varied details. Walls of stuff on the left and right going down a narrow walkway to a rear bed, converted from dinette if there’s no dinette up front. Not much room for humans.

I agree with George as to the windows. I love them.

From my perspective the main differences, not necessarily innovative nor inventive, between NA and EU camper vans are:
- Better utilization of Y axis in Europe like, pop-up roofs,
- Manufacturing methodology closer to automotive often leverage from model to model.

I had hopes that Westfalia’s exCEO Mike Reuer will bring some of the manufacturing methodology to Roadtrek but 4 years later I don’t se much.

[Sensfan]

Has anyone seen the Oasi 540?

[MsNomer]

It would certainly save a lot of people a lot of time if they could buy the formed walls and ceilings.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

It would certainly save a lot of people a lot of time if they could buy the formed walls and ceilings.

Indeed. This is why I started with the passenger van, all walls, headliner and trim was finished at MB quality from the get go. I had to remove the headliner to install the fan, wiring, and Thinsulate. Time to for headliner removal and snap back installation was about an hour (before overhead cabinets).

I remember a video done by a conversion shop in LA, about 2013-5. Camera was stationary taking video during activity only. They reduce the multi-month video to high speed 10 min. I took over 3 min to trim the van.

[GeorgeRa]

They are slow coming to US, looks like Oliver trailer, from my perspective the best four season trailer ever, a double shell fiberglass construction.

See their new AC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY8kE32ITDE

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I had hopes that Westfalia’s exCEO Mike Reuer will bring some of the manufacturing methodology to Roadtrek but 4 years later I don’t se much.

Isn't that maybe because American expectations in RVing are different than Europeans and American companies are in competition to meet those expectations? I don't know, but in European marketing it seems aimed at younger more active people and families (almost all European vans have second row of seats) and Americans for what I see on the road are mostly elderly and retired. They also have to compete with trailers, Class As and Cs with more amenities and luxury in that supposed market and that influences design. The DIY trend with younger RVers are just influencing the American market such as the Revel, Ascent dipping a toe in the water and now the Winnebago Adventure van which may spur a lot of rivals.

Heck, in 2012 on the Alaskan Highway we befriended a young German couple who had brought their CS Reisemobile over from Germany which was completely different than the cookie cutter Roadtreks, Great West Vans, Liesure Travel Vans, and Pleasure-way (marketing decisions by the biggies). I don't deny their van got me to thinking there had to be a better way, especially in a short van not to scrimp on galley space and (4' counters) bathrooms (porta poties). Short vans do pay attention to storage space because so many market to bikers, more so in DIY, which creates enormous space whether they travel with bikes or not. Influences are evident with the bunk beds.

Draw a line across the end of the bed and you can see wall to wall queen beds take up over half the space of the van vs. less than 25% with bunk beds to distribute elsewhere.

[Sensfan]

[QUOTE=Davydd;145203]Isn't that maybe because American expectations in RVing are different than Europeans and American companies are in competition to meet those expectations? I don't know, but in European marketing it seems aimed at younger more active people and families (almost all European vans have second row of seats) and Americans for what I see on the road are mostly elderly and retired.

Yup. It appears that N.A.Class B designs used to be much more family prioritized. I recall meeting a couple in 2013 who had an early 80’s Dodge RT, which they bought new. It had two longitudinally orientated ceiling-hinged bunk beds ... very cool. They and their young family used the van until the kids outgrew it.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Isn't that maybe because American expectations in RVing are different than Europeans and American companies are in competition to meet those expectations? I don't know, but in European marketing it seems aimed at younger more active people and families (almost all European vans have second row of seats) and Americans for what I see on the road are mostly elderly and retired. They also have to compete with trailers, Class As and Cs with more amenities and luxury in that supposed market and that influences design. The DIY trend with younger RVers are just influencing the American market such as the Revel, Ascent dipping a toe in the water and now the Winnebago Adventure van which may spur a lot of rivals.

Heck, in 2012 on the Alaskan Highway we befriended a young German couple who had brought their CS Reisemobile over from Germany which was completely different than the cookie cutter Roadtreks, Great West Vans, Liesure Travel Vans, and Pleasure-way (marketing decisions by the biggies). I don't deny their van got me to thinking there had to be a better way, especially in a short van not to scrimp on galley space and (4' counters) bathrooms (porta poties). Short vans do pay attention to storage space because so many market to bikers, more so in DIY, which creates enormous space whether they travel with bikes or not. Influences are evident with the bunk beds.

Draw a line across the end of the bed and you can see wall to wall queen beds take up over half the space of the van vs. less than 25% with bunk beds to distribute elsewhere.

Our best experience with RVs were from purchase, use and sale of our first RVs for our young family. Those were Westfalias. Both purchased at VW dealers, service was done by VW. The additional benefit of the second Westfalia was European delivery. Prices for campers were set, about 33%* over base model.

Both designs were for basic camping for young families, 4 to 6 seats, sleeping for 4 ½. Mercedes killed this market in US by buying Westfalia and mismanage it to bankruptcy, fortunately Westfalia was rescued by French Rapido Group. VW tried to duplicate this Westfalia young family market success with Winnebago but ultimately fail due to Winnebago quality and fast emergence of SUVs for grocery shopping.

Sportsmobile, a close competitor to VW Westfalia couldn’t keep up.

The camper van market was pretty much renamed to the B Class, 2 passengers, sleeping for two, showers, mega fresh water tanks, mega black/gray water tanks etc. Perhaps the best way to answer why it happen is to ask “cui bono?”. I think primarily manufacturers should hold responsibilities by pumping B Class vans with goodies for retirees and charging for it exorbitant prices, if the market was willing why not. Staying in the market for young families at 33% over base higher prices wasn’t easy nor as profitable as tuning the business to richer elderly customers. The most ingenious marketing strategy was to convince customers that high prices are necessary and have them justifying high prices for others, very clever.

The market for young family camping responded with growing DIY conversions. It seems as Winnebago noticed, and acted by selling a DIY product. We will see how successful they are going to be.

When Mercedes drove Westfalia to bankruptcy, the family focus camper van wasn’t lost in Europe, there were and still are many other manufacturers fulfilling needs of this market there.

*1977 van $5299, camper $7,000, 1985 van average $13,035, camper $17,510;

[N147JK]

Originally Posted by avanti

It's not just RVs: Residential architecture (apartments, dorms, some hotels) are way cooler and better thought-out in Europe than anything you see in the US. I think there is just more of a design culture across the pond. Very high end houses in the US invariably use European appliances, 'cause they are cooler-looking.

Yes I think a lot of it is cultural. Americans will accept cheap and crude, just as long as it's big. Europeans? No so much. They are used to less quantity, but expect a more sophisticated design.

[Sleeping Dog]

Originally Posted by jrobe

Just for fun I looked up the prices of some of these innovative designs from Europe, especially the ones that might interest me. As an example, the Hymer Yukon S sells for $225,000 US. I think you get what you pay for with no free lunch on either side of the pond.

Take into consideration that the price shown includes the VAT, value added tax, that, depending on country can be up to 25%