Side discussions moved from "What a battery monitor may not tell you"

[RossWilliams]

It's not that difficult now to gain an understanding of how to use an Ah counter type meter and what to use it for.

Its also easy to misuse it as the article makes clear. And the consequences are not obvious. If you draw your AGM batteries down to 15% when you think you are at 50% there is not going to be any immediate consequence and you are not likely to connect the dots when the battery fails after two or three years.

My car has an odometer and the manufacture tells me the size of its tank and its miles per gallon. I wouldn't use that information to determine how much gas I have left in the tank. Especially if my only way of knowing if the tank was full was that the pump stopped. But perhaps one of the great myths is the simplification of batteries as tanks of liquid where you put electricity in and take it out. Its a useful analogy, but they don't really work that way.

[booster]

Ross, you haven't answered any questions, and as you think monitors are so bad, what do you use? How is it better than a monitor? How did you test it? What is the actual current capacity of your batteries? Explain to us your understanding of how a monitor works and why it won't, including what settings are so terribly hard to get right.



You are just arguing for the sake of arguing, if you aren't willing to usefully contribute some good information.


Just because any product can fail if misused, should we disregard them completely? You have an Onan? Surely couldn't use them, etc etc.


As to your example, what you are essentially advocating is really disconnecting the odometer, speedometer, and gas gauge in the vehicle because they may not be perfect to your standard and would prefer no information.


I repeat, what do you use that is better, and why?


And while you are at it, why is it horrible that you abuse your batteries by being at 15% when you think 50% because your monitor is set wrong, but OK if you do the same or worse because you don't have a clue what the SOC is?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

…………………………. If you draw your AGM batteries down to 15% when you think you are at 50% there is not going to be any immediate consequence and you are not likely to connect the dots when the battery fails after two or three years…………………………

Good point indeed, what is your way to prevent this potential scenario in your system, connecting dots of uknowns?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

But perhaps one of the great myths is the simplification of batteries as tanks of liquid where you put electricity in and take it out. Its a useful analogy, but they don't really work that way.

Actually, this analogy is not a myth at all. For a great many purposes, it is extremely accurate and the novice would be well-advised to start with a deep understanding of the "water flow" analogy of electrical systems before moving on to esoterica like "Peukert's law".

OF COURSE it isn't perfect--a perfect analogy is not an analogy at all. Even when talking about water in tanks, there are edge-phenomena (e.g. air pressure effects, temperature effects...) that complicate the analysis when great precision is required. It is easy to cherry-pick the edge cases for polemical purposes, but I am not sure how constructive it is.

To call the water analogy a "myth" is a disservice to those trying to learn.

[booster]

I would guess we will never get any useful information about what is better, what is being used, or an explanation of why totally inaccurate is better than slight errors. The goal has already been reached and that is to argue for the sake of arguing, regardless of what the actual data says. Shouldn't surprise any of us.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Actually, this analogy is not a myth at all. For a great many purposes, it is extremely accurate and the novice would be well-advised to start with a deep understanding of the "water flow" analogy of electrical systems before moving on to esoterica like "Peukert's law".

OF COURSE it isn't perfect--a perfect analogy is not an analogy at all. Even when talking about water in tanks, there are edge-phenomena (e.g. air pressure effects, temperature effects...) that complicate the analysis when great precision is required. It is easy to cherry-pick the edge cases for polemical purposes, but I am not sure how constructive it is.

To call the water analogy a "myth" is a disservice to those trying to learn.

For some analogy could be could be a myth if it is not fully understood.

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

…………………….
In the water/electricity analogy, volts are the water pressure, amps are the size of the pipe and watts are the flow. You don't have 9 gallon pipes. That solar panel generates 170 watts at 9.4 amps and 18 volts. So if there is universal confusion here it is between watts and amps. ……..

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

For some analogy could be could be a myth if it is not fully understood.

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

In the water/electricity analogy, volts are the water pressure, amps are the size of the pipe and watts are the flow. You don't have 9 gallon pipes. That solar panel generates 170 watts at 9.4 amps and 18 volts. So if there is universal confusion here it is between watts and amps.

Ouch! I missed that one.

[avanti]

For anyone who is curious about the "water" analogy, I posted a quick overview on the list a long time ago:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...html#post35500

[booster]

Has anyone else noticed how quickly Ross has pivoted from the thread topic to new criticisms of other things, so he doesn't have to address the very valid questions asked of him about the original topic, but he can coninue to argue?


All contrary and no useful input given, even when asked. Another good topic destroyed for no good reason, like many others lately.


So how about answering the questions?

[RossWilliams]

The first thing to understand is that batteries don't store electricity, they store energy in chemical bonds. The appliances in our RV use energy to do stuff. Electricity is used to convey the energy stored in the battery to the appliance that uses it.

The battery (water pump) creates a current(stream), the amount of energy/watts(water) the appliance can use from that current(stream) depends on its voltage(water pressure) and amps(width of the stream). That is electric current as a stream of water where the amount of water coming out the end of the hose is determined by the water pressure and the size of the hose. That is useful analogy if what you care about is how much water/energy you are going to use.

The analogy of a battery to a tank of fluid is useful to the point that it makes clear you have to put energy in the battery to take energy out, the same way you have to put fluid in a tank to take fluid out of it. But unlike a tank, a battery is not an inert vessel. You will always have to put in more energy than you get out in electric current and the difference will vary quite substantially for any given battery depending on a variety of different conditions, including the size of the current it creates. Moreover, unlike a tank of fluid, how quickly the battery wears out will also vary substantially based on how it is used.

The analogy of a battery to a tank of fluid becomes a myth when you start to simply measure amps in and out to determine how much energy is remaining in the battery. That's the reason any decent battery monitor doesn't do that. But if your model is that battery as a tank of fluid its easy to be misled by the information it does provide.

As the article I linked above describes, there are lots of other ways a battery monitor can provide inaccurate or misleading information. And its not always going to be obvious when that is happening.

[booster]

But, Ross, what about the questions?????????????????


Just another example of divert from actually being useful to stay with another argument and never give any decent input.


As much as I thought this topic was useful, I think the mods should just delete the entire thread as it has now been made way to garbaged up to be of any decent use to anyone.


Thanks, Ross, You are one of a kind.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

In the water/electricity analogy, volts are the water pressure, amps are the size of the pipe and watts are the flow.

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

The battery (water pump) creates a current(stream), the amount of energy/watts(water) the appliance can use from that current(stream) depends on its voltage(water pressure) and amps(width of the stream).

Just in case anyone is trying to follow this:

Amps are most certainly NOT "the size of the pipe" (that is resistance). Nor is it the "width of the stream" (whatever that means).

"Amps" are a unit of measuring CURRENT. In the water analogy, the analog of current is volume of water flow. For example, if you turn off a valve (switch) in a circuit, the flow (current) will go to zero. It makes no difference whatsoever how big the pipe is.

Current is related to resistance and voltage (via Ohm's Law), just as volume of water flow is related to both pipe size and pressure.

[RossWilliams]

"fluid flow rate = area of the pipe or channel×velocity of the liquid"

Watts=Amps x volts

For our purposes we use energy and we use water and what is important is how much we are using. That depends on Wwhat comes out the end of the "pipe". Electricity is used to move the energy stored in the battery to the appliance that uses it and amps play exactly the same role that pipe size does in determining the flow of water.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

"fluid flow rate = area of the pipe or channel×velocity of the liquid"

Watts=Amps x volts

You need to find out the definition of an "area", width nor diameter are not. But these details could overengineering for you, as you preferred to keep baiting at middle school level.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

"fluid flow rate = area of the pipe or channel×velocity of the liquid"

Watts=Amps x volts

For our purposes we use energy and we use water and what is important is how much we are using. That depends on Wwhat comes out the end of the "pipe". Electricity is used to move the energy stored in the battery to the appliance that uses it and amps play exactly the same role that pipe size does in determining the flow of water.

"amps play 'exactly' the same role that pipe size does in determining the flow of water."

Huh?

Bud

[RossWilliams]

Originally Posted by Bud

"amps play 'exactly' the same role that pipe size does in determining the flow of water

Huh
Bud

Look at the two formulas:

Flow of Water = size of pipe times the velocity

Flow of energy = amps times volts

In fact, of course, electricity isn't a fluid, isn't stored in the battery and it doesn't flow out the end of a pipe. But if you don't get the idea of the amp as the size of the pipe, then you are misunderstanding the water analogy and likely the function of electricity. In both cases the formula is flow = volume x force.

Here is the apparent alternate model:

Flow of energy (amps) = ? x volts

I don't see what replaces that "?"

A better analogy is probably a train where the amps are the coal cars, the volts are the train's velocity and the energy is the coal. The battery stores the coal, loads it on the train and its unloaded and used to power the appliance. And some of it gets used up to do all that. So you end up getting less coal at your appliance than you started with or was stored in the battery.

How much gets used varies according to a number of factors. But the bottom line is simply measuring how much coal you put into the batteries and how much your appliances actually use will not tell you how much is left. As the article I have linked several times makes clear, this is not some abstract, theoretical problem, it has real world results that really shouldn't be ignored.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

The first thing to understand is that batteries don't store electricity, they store energy in chemical bonds. The appliances in our RV use energy to do stuff. Electricity is used to convey the energy stored in the battery to the appliance that uses it.

The battery (water pump) creates a current(stream), the amount of energy/watts(water) the appliance can use from that current(stream) depends on its voltage(water pressure) and amps(width of the stream). That is electric current as a stream of water where the amount of water coming out the end of the hose is determined by the water pressure and the size of the hose. That is useful analogy if what you care about is how much water/energy you are going to use.

The analogy of a battery to a tank of fluid is useful to the point that it makes clear you have to put energy in the battery to take energy out, the same way you have to put fluid in a tank to take fluid out of it. But unlike a tank, a battery is not an inert vessel. You will always have to put in more energy than you get out in electric current and the difference will vary quite substantially for any given battery depending on a variety of different conditions, including the size of the current it creates. Moreover, unlike a tank of fluid, how quickly the battery wears out will also vary substantially based on how it is used.

The analogy of a battery to a tank of fluid becomes a myth when you start to simply measure amps in and out to determine how much energy is remaining in the battery. That's the reason any decent battery monitor doesn't do that. But if your model is that battery as a tank of fluid its easy to be misled by the information it does provide.

As the article I linked above describes, there are lots of other ways a battery monitor can provide inaccurate or misleading information. And its not always going to be obvious when that is happening.

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Look at the two formulas:

Flow of Water = size of pipe times the velocity

Flow of energy = amps times volts

In fact, of course, electricity isn't a fluid, isn't stored in the battery and it doesn't flow out the end of a pipe. But if you don't get the idea of the amp as the size of the pipe, then you are misunderstanding the water analogy and likely the function of electricity. In both cases the formula is flow = volume x force.

Here is the apparent alternate model:

Flow of energy (amps) = ? x volts

I don't see what replaces that "?"

A better analogy is probably a train where the amps are the coal cars, the volts are the train's velocity and the energy is the coal. The battery stores the coal, loads it on the train and its unloaded and used to power the appliance. And some of it gets used up to do all that. So you end up getting less coal at your appliance than you started with or was stored in the battery.

How much gets used varies according to a number of factors. But the bottom line is simply measuring how much coal you put into the batteries and how much your appliances actually use will not tell you how much is left. As the article I have linked several times makes clear, this is not some abstract, theoretical problem, it has real world results that really shouldn't be ignored.

In the immortal words of Wolfgang Pauli:
"That isn't right. It isn't even wrong."

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

In the immortal words of Wolfgang Pauli:
"That isn't right. It isn't even wrong."

Just about the best summary of the pretense posts about Onan or Amp/hour. Unfortunately, no open forums are immune and no solutions are perfect.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

The AH rating from the manufacturer is new. You will need to adjust it downward as the battery ages. If you leave it at the manufactures rating you will soon be drawing it down further than you think. The point of the battery monitor is to avoid that.

Yep, we all know that, and it has been repeated stated that for max accuracy you need to do a periodic capacity check, either full test or to a predetermined reference point you set.


What is your point?


And by the way, if you are going to keep slinging arrows at monitors, I think you owe the board answers to the questions you were asked.


If you can't answer those very simple questions, you certainly can't have the expertise to criticize those that use monitors or recommend them.


The answers to those questions will show us all what is better than a monitor because you use it, correct???????

[RossWilliams]

You also might want to take a look at this Rolls Battery description of voltage readings . Its chart has a voltage of 11.04 under load at 75% discharged. At 50% discharge the voltage is 11.58. Those are under load, not resting voltages.

You also might want to read this discussion of the confusion that under load and resting/open voltages can create in determining the actual state of the battery.

You can understand why manufacturers use idiot lights, given how complicated is to get a precise and accurate state of charge from batteries where that is a constantly moving target.