Safety hazard in Aktiv and EcoTrek

[booster]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

You are describing what they should have done. I'll draw a schematic when I return from vacation. The inverter is the only box downstream to the shore power input to the Aktiv. There is no intervening circuit breaker or box. The main panel's only connection to shore power safety ground is through the inverter and its internally hardwired 18 gauge wires between gnd input and gnd output.

I think that what I described is what you have. Shore power post, cord, some wiring in the van to the inverter/charger, then to the main box. This is exactly how ours is wired only with the addition of the a power protector inline. It would be the standard way to do a no generator setup. In this case the power source is the power pole, and that is the only place neutral and ground should be bonded. That means whenever you are plugged in the inverter and main box should not be bonded. The problem is in testing it because you can't do an continuity test with it on shore power.

As was mentioned, the "bonded close to the power source" might be technically covering the main box being bonded instead of the inverter, but of course only when the inverter is the AC power source, not shore power.

One big question would have to be if they are using the chassis for ground/safety ground for the AC power. Most RV do, but it certainly isn't required, or maybe even not necessarily the best.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

The problem is in testing it because you can't do an continuity test with it on shore power.

Why not? Can't you just put an ohmmeter between ground and neutral anywhere in the vehicle? It should be open when unplugged from shore power and shorted when plugged in, right?

One big question would have to be if they are using the chassis for ground/safety ground for the AC power. Most RV do, but it certainly isn't required, or maybe even not necessarily the best.

Not sure what you mean here. It is certainly unsafe for the chassis to not be bonded to the 120VAC ground wire. Otherwise a fault such as a worn hot wire coming into contact with the chassis could go undetected. OTOH, if you mean using the chassis INSTEAD of a green ground wire, then yes, that is less clear.

[booster]

If you check continuity between neutral and ground when plugged into shore power, they will show bonding, but that will not tell you if there are more than one bonds in the system. If when you unplug from shore power and check for bonding, you can see either none if neither the box, inverter, or anywhere else is bonded, or you could see bonding without it being an issue if the inverter automatically bonds when shore power is removed. With the inverter on you should always see bonding, but again you don't know if it is one or more bonds. It is very hard to check the bonding unless you know how the bonding is done, or not, in the inverter. You would either need a good manufacturer description, or disconnect the outputs to the van and test it free standing for bonding.

The grounding of the chassis is a safety factor when you are on shore power, as you have an earth reference at the power pole both on neutral and ground because they are bonded. If either hit the chassis it can go hot, no question a hazard. When you are on the inverter, it is a bit different, I think, as if chassis is used as safety ground, and the inverter is bonded, that means the neutral and chassis run at the same voltage which may float without an earth ground reference. It also means that if you get between a hot AC wire and the chassis, you can get zapped. This can happen from a shorted appliance, or such, or even from an extension cord out to run something in the campsite that leaks to wet ground. Stand on the wet ground, touch the van, and zap. All of these are can happens, and surely don't happen regularly, and if they do usually have enough resistance in shoes, gloves, paint, etc to not be terribly hazardous, but can happen. It is interesting that this is also how your home works. If you are handling an extension cord, or some other way get hold of a hot AC wire, and you happen to touch and appliance or anything else that has a safety ground like a metal wiring box or conduit, you get zapped.

I do prefer having the chassis grounded to the AC safety ground, because of the shore power issues, as IMO those hazards would be more likely to happen to us. The other issues should mostly be covered by using GFCI on all the circuits in the van, I hope.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Appology gladly excepted. My name is private except on one closed facebook group. I lost my first Hymer to a hymer repair black hole. I received a full refund and brought another knowing it had design defects the dealer couldn't fix. Given no other alternative, i've corrected all defects myself since i'll only live in a safe RV. I'm posting here because other owners are exposed and Hymer isn't listening. The Aktiv has the best floorplan and feature set but it is built carelessly. Hymer's manufacturing and engineering process will be fixed once we shine light on the problem.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

I think that what I described is what you have. Shore power post, cord, some wiring in the van to the inverter/charger, then to the main box. This is exactly how ours is wired only with the addition of the a power protector inline. It would be the standard way to do a no generator setup. In this case the power source is the power pole, and that is the only place neutral and ground should be bonded. That means whenever you are plugged in the inverter and main box should not be bonded. The problem is in testing it because you can't do an continuity test with it on shore power.

As was mentioned, the "bonded close to the power source" might be technically covering the main box being bonded instead of the inverter, but of course only when the inverter is the AC power source, not shore power.

One big question would have to be if they are using the chassis for ground/safety ground for the AC power. Most RV do, but it certainly isn't required, or maybe even not necessarily the best.

I'm typing from a phone and can barely see the print You clearly have experience and I want to be on the same page. Can we agree that when the RV is shore -powered the power, neutral and ground should be connected to the circut breaker box with three 12 gauge wires? What is the point of an 18 gauge ground wire that might fuse open during an incident?

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by BBQ

If JH has offered you the buyback, but you declined. That implies you are accepting the RV, warts and all. He still has to fix the deficiencies under warranty. But in terms of changing anything, he will have no urgency to do anything unless it is directed by the respective governing agencies.

JH is CEO and has a fiduciary responsiblity. That's why he was cc'd on safety emails. Keeping owners safe and abiding by hymer's voluntary agreement with RVIA should be enough motivation. The results don't match the commitment so it's time for government envolment. Who is the best regulatory authority?

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

JH is CEO and has a fiduciary responsiblity. That's why he was cc'd on safety emails. Keeping owners safe and abiding by hymer's voluntary agreement with RVIA should be enough motivation. The results don't match the commitment so it's time for government envolment. Who is the best regulatory authority?

Unfortunately, the RV industry is loosely regulated.
You can say, the RV industry is hardly regulated at all, because most of the "regulations" are imposed by separate and disconnected agencies.

Even when there is a "regulation", the rules are not consistent. For example, you can put a seatbelt anywhere in the RV without adhering to the same standard or the same rigorous testings as required by passenger cars. You don't even need a shoulder belt!

I admire your knowledge and the energy to do the right thing.
Many unfortunate customers have received "cease and desist" letters; they were required to delete all the description of troubles from the internet before they were accorded warranty service.

[SteveJ]

I'm not in the market but if I were there would be no way in xxxx I would consider a Roadtrek with the current management and company culture there. Apparently enough people do not feel the same way, they are still cranking them out. I would think that at some point the used value for these would get hit. I'll be looking for another used unit in a few years, it will likely not be a RT unless an older unit.

As an aside, Roadtrek must be a real "fun" place to work at.

[booster]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

I'm typing from a phone and can barely see the print You clearly have experience and I want to be on the same page. Can we agree that when the RV is shore -powered the power, neutral and ground should be connected to the circut breaker box with three 12 gauge wires? What is the point of an 18 gauge ground wire that might fuse open during an incident?

The box would be connected with a third wire in a house, but it wouldn't normally be in the conduit as it would be a ground and be connected to the box proper and a ground rod, you don't have that option in an RV. If you look at your diagram, the box and ground buss bar are shown connected to the van chassis, so that is your third wire in the van. I missed seeing that originally. So, you will only have two large wires coming into the box.

Before going any further, it appears that the pic is actually of a 2 pole box, which would have two hot wires and a neutral to it. The two hots would connect to the center terminals and the neutral would go the the neutral buss bar. It also looks like the pic has been altered to try to eliminate the neutral to the buss bar and one of the hots color changed to neutral white. I reality, if that box were used the black hot would got to BOTH of the center terminals with a jumper, and the neutral would go the neutral bar. The way the drawing is currently made, would be totally incorrect as one set of breakers would be hot and one neutral, and there would be no connection to the power neutral for any of the loads.

Ok, so assuming the box is really wired as I describe. Black to all the breakers, neutral to the neutral buss, ground buss to chassis, chassis to shore power ground somewhere (likely right by the inverter). My guess is that it is wired that way. That leaves the question of what the 18 ga wire is for and what is up with ground connections inside the inverter going to 18ga, plus the undersized "earth" connection.

To answer those questions, I think we need to know the make and model of the inverter you have, so the install instructions can be found to see what they say. My guess is that the 18ga that goes to the box has something to do with bonding, but what is hard to understand. There is possibly explanation for the ground connections at the inverter in the install manual. If this is one of the Roadtrek private label inverters, perhaps someone can identify who made it, maybe Aimes?

I would make sure not to send that pic to any authorities or regulators, as I don't think it accurately reflects the single pole wiring main box in an RV, and they will pitch the whole thing as inaccurate because of it.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Unfortunately, the RV industry is loosely regulated.
... you can put a seatbelt anywhere in the RV without adhering to the same standard or the same rigorous testings as required by passenger cars. You don't even need a shoulder belt! ...

Not to hijack the thread, but since you mentioned it here, this has long been a concern to me.

My Class B has jack-knife couches with 4 seat belts (two on each side) anchored to the Sprinter frame. When they need to be used, the right and left halves of each seatbelt are threaded up through the central seam in the couches, which face each other (and fold down, meeting in the middle to become a queen-sized bed).

The belt anchoring may be fine, but between the frame and the sitter's butt is the issue of the couch itself, which is only weakly anchored to the floor - certainly not anchored with anything resembling the robustness of an automotive seat. In fact, I've gotten emails from owners who have had issues with floor rot. When that happens, the couch tends to detach spontaneously during routine use. "Oops, I just sat on it and it moved!" That is often how floor rot is first discovered. In other words, the couch is not anchored to the Sprinter frame or the floor - just to the plywood overlay.

Use your imagination if you (or your child, or your grandchild) were sitting back there in a crash. The sitter's mid-section, thighs and pelvis, might be crushed by the forces caused by the couch easily detaching from the plywood floor while their seatbelts remain anchored to the frame.

There, I said it.

[booster]

Does your inverter look anything like the one in this Aims manual. This was linked in an earlier thread as being a private label unit Roadtrek uses.

http://www.aimscorp.net/documents/PI...0W12V120VR.pdf

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Does your inverter look anything like the one in this Aims manual. This was linked in an earlier thread as being a private label unit Roadtrek uses.

http://www.aimscorp.net/documents/PI...0W12V120VR.pdf

actually i think roadtrek used rebadged aimpower and then started buying them direct from the china supplier to aimspower.

the chinese manufacturer has it's units used all over the world. However they are usually used at fixed sites.

mobile uits are actually a relatively new concept

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Unfortunately, the RV industry is loosely regulated.
You can say, the RV industry is hardly regulated at all, because most of the "regulations" are imposed by separate and disconnected agencies.

Even when there is a "regulation", the rules are not consistent. For example, you can put a seatbelt anywhere in the RV without adhering to the same standard or the same rigorous testings as required by passenger cars. You don't even need a shoulder belt!

I admire your knowledge and the energy to do the right thing.
Many unfortunate customers have received "cease and desist" letters; they were required to delete all the description of troubles from the internet before they were accorded warranty service.

You might be right but LOL! That reminds me of Harvey's NDAs with gag causes to cover up rape. Too soon? I'm going to work for the owners and get the reguation system fixed so other owners don't gets hurt. I hope hymer/ROADTREK is the only bad apple.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

The box would be connected with a third wire in a house, but it wouldn't normally be in the conduit as it would be a ground and be connected to the box proper and a ground rod, you don't have that option in an RV. If you look at your diagram, the box and ground buss bar are shown connected to the van chassis, so that is your third wire in the van. I missed seeing that originally. So, you will only have two large wires coming into the box.

Before going any further, it appears that the pic is actually of a 2 pole box, which would have two hot wires and a neutral to it. The two hots would connect to the center terminals and the neutral would go the the neutral buss bar. It also looks like the pic has been altered to try to eliminate the neutral to the buss bar and one of the hots color changed to neutral white. I reality, if that box were used the black hot would got to BOTH of the center terminals with a jumper, and the neutral would go the neutral bar. The way the drawing is currently made, would be totally incorrect as one set of breakers would be hot and one neutral, and there would be no connection to the power neutral for any of the loads.

Ok, so assuming the box is really wired as I describe. Black to all the breakers, neutral to the neutral buss, ground buss to chassis, chassis to shore power ground somewhere (likely right by the inverter). My guess is that it is wired that way. That leaves the question of what the 18 ga wire is for and what is up with ground connections inside the inverter going to 18ga, plus the undersized "earth" connection.

To answer those questions, I think we need to know the make and model of the inverter you have, so the install instructions can be found to see what they say. My guess is that the 18ga that goes to the box has something to do with bonding, but what is hard to understand. There is possibly explanation for the ground connections at the inverter in the install manual. If this is one of the Roadtrek private label inverters, perhaps someone can identify who made it, maybe Aimes?

I would make sure not to send that pic to any authorities or regulators, as I don't think it accurately reflects the single pole wiring main box in an RV, and they will pitch the whole thing as inaccurate because of it.

Again, this is a great group with great knowledge. The only non-copyrighted figure i could find on the web was 240 dual leg with two main breakers. The layman owners on Facebook needed a simple description. The schematic I will draw will show what we don't wish were true:
1) There is no active control of the safety ground; it is hard wired
2) The ONLY connection of 30amp shore power 12 gauge safety ground is to an 18 gauge wire inside the inverter. I checked this by removing the shore power ground at the inverter. The resistance between outside shore ground plug terminal and breaker box safety went to infinity. Every resistance measurement from the shore ground was infinity because it wasn't connected to anything but that 28 gauge wire.
3) we can address all of the bad bonding AFTER there is a 12 gauge circut for safety ground.

[booster]

If the unit is similar to the Aims in the link, which is possible because they talk about a green wire in the unit that can be cut to disable the automatic bonding of neutral and ground, then the 12ga wire from shore power would go to the inverter chassis at one of the ground (earth or other label) connection. All the auto bonding does is tie the neutral to the chassis of the inverter to bond them at that point. That would all make sense. What does not make sense is why there would be a small wire from ground to neutral all the time, as that would violate the two bonding point rules when you are on shore power. Gut feel is telling me that the small wire probably should have gone to the ground buss instead of the neutral buss in the breaker box, and may have been intended to be a non-chassis path of low resistance to reference ground at the inverter more accurately.

Does the 12ga shore power wire have a lug or ring terminal on it? If so, it likely just got forgotten that it didn't get onto one of the ground terminals on the inverter. If along with that the small wire got put on the wrong buss bar, the system would be good, assuming the inverter does autobond the neutral and ground.

[booster]

Here is a link to one of the Magnum inverter/chargers like we have. A few pages in, it shows how the autobonding is wired and further in shows the 110v wiring. I think you will find it as has been described earlier. Not particularly that the only shore ground connection is to the chassis of the inverter. Magnum does want you to use a safety ground from the chassis of the inverter to the vehicle frame, though, if the vehicle frame is used as safety ground (as in the breaker box ground buss is tied to the vehicle chassis)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...6X7UIMNoHrk9L_

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

Does your inverter look anything like the one in this Aims manual. This was linked in an earlier thread as being a private label unit Roadtrek uses.

http://www.aimscorp.net/documents/PI...0W12V120VR.pdf

I've attached the manual that someone from hymer posted. Please keep in mind that the grounds are hardwired at the input terminal. The manual incorrectly says ground is managed.

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

Here is a link to one of the Magnum inverter/chargers like we have. A few pages in, it shows how the autobonding is wired and further in shows the 110v wiring. I think you will find it as has been described earlier. Not particularly that the only shore ground connection is to the chassis of the inverter. Magnum does want you to use a safety ground from the chassis of the inverter to the vehicle frame, though, if the vehicle frame is used as safety ground (as in the breaker box ground buss is tied to the vehicle chassis)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...6X7UIMNoHrk9L_

The words in the manual attached to an earlier post has nice words but the reality is as I've discribed. Perhaps Hymer will give Aktiv and ECO-TREK owers a new Magnum

[ContinuousImprovement]

Originally Posted by booster

If the unit is similar to the Aims in the link, which is possible because they talk about a green wire in the unit that can be cut to disable the automatic bonding of neutral and ground, then the 12ga wire from shore power would go to the inverter chassis at one of the ground (earth or other label) connection. All the auto bonding does is tie the neutral to the chassis of the inverter to bond them at that point. That would all make sense. What does not make sense is why there would be a small wire from ground to neutral all the time, as that would violate the two bonding point rules when you are on shore power. Gut feel is telling me that the small wire probably should have gone to the ground buss instead of the neutral buss in the breaker box, and may have been intended to be a non-chassis path of low resistance to reference ground at the inverter more accurately.

Does the 12ga shore power wire have a lug or ring terminal on it? If so, it likely just got forgotten that it didn't get onto one of the ground terminals on the inverter. If along with that the small wire got put on the wrong buss bar, the system would be good, assuming the inverter does autobond the neutral and ground.

Warning authored in tiny screen late at night.
Shore cable ground lugs? Buss bars? Autobond? I wish these words applied to the Hymer/ecotrek shore power design.
The attached picture shows an interior view of the inverter's I/O terminal block AFTER our Aktiv.was made safe by adding the 10 gauge green wire. From Hymer, only the shown 18 gauge green/yellow wires are between the top and bottom set screw terminals.

Externally the shore power's cable is attached here and only here. The top connection is shore safety ground to the 18 gauge wire. The next down is HOT to the internal red 12 gauge wire routed to inverter electronics. The third setscrew externally connects to shore neutral and internally to a black 12 gauge wire to the inverter electronics.
The bottom three setscrew terminals are the inverter's output. Fourth is neutral, fifth is HOT and bottom is safety ground to the breaker box. Ignoring my added 10 gauge green wire, the ONLY connection from shore ground and the breaker box ground cable is the yellow/green 18 gauge wire. Not shown in the picture available on vacation is the internal crimped lug that splices the two 18 gauge wires togethee and is attach internally to the painted chassis.

Your last paragraph starts to explore, "how did hymer make such a dangerous mistake". Even the best engineer makes mistakes. The better question is who reviewed? Even the best factory technician makes mistakes. Why couldn't RVIA inspectors see the blaten defects and stop shipment? Why did the Aktiv pass RVIA certification? Is the confusingly labled breaker box cable as SHORE POWER an intentional error?

I suspect that safety priority and design/mfg process are lacking. I detect Hymer managment has created an environment of "ship the product" and CYA. Problems are buryed instead of fixed.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by ContinuousImprovement

...

...Why couldn't RVIA inspectors see the blaten defects and stop shipment? Why did the Aktiv pass RVIA certification?

....

The RVIA is a trade association of RV manufacturers and component parts suppliers.

I don't see how a trade association can police themselves on such highly technical matters.