Photog's Lifted Suspension 2009 Roadtrek 190V

[Luv2Go]

Hi Mrchannman: I'm about to embark on this upgrade. How did your roadtrip go regarding the droop stop and 81004's?

[dmac]

Thanks to all of you that have spent so much time & money on solving the RT 190 suspension problems. As a soon to be owner, I'm deeply indebted to you.

My future ride is a 2003 P with 68k miles, but only 500 in the past three years, and a 1000/year for several years before that. Perhaps that, and ethanol fuel, is why it's in the shop with a sticking and then burnt or bent valve. Lack of use is not our friend.

While awaiting parts and repairs, I'm tempted to take advantage of the downtime and have the same shop make some suspension changes. I'm 700 miles distant from the RT, so I can't measure any of the normal heights, and would have no base measurements. The other option is to wait on the suspension changes until home in Seattle. Recommendations?

My impression from prior work posted here is that the following is needed, with suggested brands and part numbers:
1. Air shocks all around. Bilstein, front: B6-24-187435; rear: B6-24-221948. $120/each.

2. Coil springs: ACDelco: #45H0340, $165/each or #341. The 341 is shorter, but the 340 is cross referenced to the often-used Moog 81004. If one uses the 340, be prepared to trim the height to xx? Best achieved by grinding or a horizontal cut, as opposed to a vertical cut reducing the number of coils to 8 or 8.5?

3. Air bags in the back.* Air Lift 5000 Ultimate, #88205, $450. (#57205 does not have the internal bump stops; $120 cheaper)
On-board tank system, latest model 74000EZ, $630. Rather pricey.

4. Sway bar to fit with the existing Onan generator. Given the valve problem in the 6L V8, I'm pretty sure the generator needs at least a carb cleaning/replacement. And while I also have a Honda 7k generator, I think I'd rather stick with the on-board*Onan. So back to the sway bar:*
Roadmaster 1.5", #1109-175, $700 @etrailer (and seems to include the axle mounting bracket kit 590061-00; unsure if I also need a rear replacement end link kit (bushing kit) 590150-00)
For the modest difference in price, go with the larger 1.5" over the 1.375"?

Sub-total so far is about $2500, plus installation. Ouch!

5. Wheels - aluminum, and I assume the original AR. Given the essentially new tires (and assuming they are both E and S rated), I'm inclined not to change them at this time. When I do change tires, go with steel 16x7", 6-hole wheels that will accept the larger 265 tire?
Or go up a size to 17"? While 95% of the miles will be on paved roads out of Seattle, there is a lot of Forest Service Road access here. Would the 17's help with that?
And what about tire chains? It's very common for chains to be required on the I-90 Pass to avoid a $500 ticket. Wouldn't think 17's would also allow chains.

[booster]

Originally Posted by dmac

Thanks to all of you that have spent so much time & money on solving the RT 190 suspension problems. As a soon to be owner, I'm deeply indebted to you.

My future ride is a 2003 P with 68k miles, but only 500 in the past three years, and a 1000/year for several years before that. Perhaps that, and ethanol fuel, is why it's in the shop with a sticking and then burnt or bent valve. Lack of use is not our friend.

While awaiting parts and repairs, I'm tempted to take advantage of the downtime and have the same shop make some suspension changes. I'm 700 miles distant from the RT, so I can't measure any of the normal heights, and would have no base measurements. The other option is to wait on the suspension changes until home in Seattle. Recommendations?

My impression from prior work posted here is that the following is needed, with suggested brands and part numbers:
1. Air shocks all around. Bilstein, front: B6-24-187435; rear: B6-24-221948. $120/each.

2. Coil springs: ACDelco: #45H0340, $165/each or #341. The 341 is shorter, but the 340 is cross referenced to the often-used Moog 81004. If one uses the 340, be prepared to trim the height to xx? Best achieved by grinding or a horizontal cut, as opposed to a vertical cut reducing the number of coils to 8 or 8.5?

3. Air bags in the back.* Air Lift 5000 Ultimate, #88205, $450. (#57205 does not have the internal bump stops; $120 cheaper)
On-board tank system, latest model 74000EZ, $630. Rather pricey.

4. Sway bar to fit with the existing Onan generator. Given the valve problem in the 6L V8, I'm pretty sure the generator needs at least a carb cleaning/replacement. And while I also have a Honda 7k generator, I think I'd rather stick with the on-board*Onan. So back to the sway bar:*
Roadmaster 1.5", #1109-175, $700 @etrailer (and seems to include the axle mounting bracket kit 590061-00; unsure if I also need a rear replacement end link kit (bushing kit) 590150-00)
For the modest difference in price, go with the larger 1.5" over the 1.375"?

Sub-total so far is about $2500, plus installation. Ouch!

5. Wheels - aluminum, and I assume the original AR. Given the essentially new tires (and assuming they are both E and S rated), I'm inclined not to change them at this time. When I do change tires, go with steel 16x7", 6-hole wheels that will accept the larger 265 tire?
Or go up a size to 17"? While 95% of the miles will be on paved roads out of Seattle, there is a lot of Forest Service Road access here. Would the 17's help with that?
And what about tire chains? It's very common for chains to be required on the I-90 Pass to avoid a $500 ticket. Wouldn't think 17's would also allow chains.

1. Yes on Bilsteins but didn't check the part numbers. They are actually not air shocks, just gas pressurized.


2. That sounds good per a recent discussion on here as long as the numbers are checked to that thread.


3. Yes on the bags, but you may want to reconsider the no internal bump stop both for the soft landing if do hit hard enough on something to bottom the bag and also being able to drive the van if a bag gets punctured. Also outside chance that you might want to remove the overload leaf in the springs also, but few folks do that.
The compressor is possible an item you might want to skip, as the job can be done with a much less expensive portable compressor. Less convenient, yes, but much less cash both for the compressor and the quite high install costs for an on board. The funds might help more if used on other things.



4. Yes on the swaybar, and either diameter will work. The larger bar will take out more sway and improve steering response some. It all depends on how you like the van to handle. Some like slightly slower response which would be kind of the way it is stock when it comes to steering correction size, but at reduced movement of the steering wheel needed. Others like the handling to be very crisp and responsive with very small corrections needed. The tighter handling would be more towards sports cars (larger bar) feel and smaller bar more toward the family station wagon from the 80's. Both exaggerated as the van will never handle like a sports car or an 80s wagon.


5. You are on the right track with the tires and wheels. As for 16 or 17 inch size, both have been used recently now that you finally can get higher capacity 17" tires. Be sure to stay very close to the correct 28mm offset for whatever wheels you get. The 16" steel pickup wheels from some older models of GM pickup are 28" but there are many that aren't. Take a print of the pix of the 6 opening steel wheel that is in some of the threads here, as well as the part number listed with the posts. They are getting hard to find, I think.
No to chains as clearance is tight and if you throw one you will have thousands of dollars of hard to fix fiberglass damage.


Sorry to hear about the engine issue as that is really rare from what I have seen in even in low use 6.0 engines. Hopefully, the bent valves didn't hurt much else. They will be able to tell as soon as the heads are off and rest of the stuff inspected. The head work will be quite expensive because they will likely need guides and maybe so rocker, lifter, or pushrod replacements, I fear. Try to post whatever they find and have to fix or replace, as that is always good information for all of us to see.

[TX-Trek]

Originally Posted by dmac

Thanks to all of you that have spent so much time & money on solving the RT 190 suspension problems. As a soon to be owner, I'm deeply indebted to you.

My future ride is a 2003 P with 68k miles, but only 500 in the past three years, and a 1000/year for several years before that. Perhaps that, and ethanol fuel, is why it's in the shop with a sticking and then burnt or bent valve. Lack of use is not our friend.

While awaiting parts and repairs, I'm tempted to take advantage of the downtime and have the same shop make some suspension changes. I'm 700 miles distant from the RT, so I can't measure any of the normal heights, and would have no base measurements. The other option is to wait on the suspension changes until home in Seattle. Recommendations?

My impression from prior work posted here is that the following is needed, with suggested brands and part numbers:
1. Air shocks all around. Bilstein, front: B6-24-187435; rear: B6-24-221948. $120/each.

2. Coil springs: ACDelco: #45H0340, $165/each or #341. The 341 is shorter, but the 340 is cross referenced to the often-used Moog 81004. If one uses the 340, be prepared to trim the height to xx? Best achieved by grinding or a horizontal cut, as opposed to a vertical cut reducing the number of coils to 8 or 8.5?

3. Air bags in the back.* Air Lift 5000 Ultimate, #88205, $450. (#57205 does not have the internal bump stops; $120 cheaper)
On-board tank system, latest model 74000EZ, $630. Rather pricey.

4. Sway bar to fit with the existing Onan generator. Given the valve problem in the 6L V8, I'm pretty sure the generator needs at least a carb cleaning/replacement. And while I also have a Honda 7k generator, I think I'd rather stick with the on-board*Onan. So back to the sway bar:*
Roadmaster 1.5", #1109-175, $700 @etrailer (and seems to include the axle mounting bracket kit 590061-00; unsure if I also need a rear replacement end link kit (bushing kit) 590150-00)
For the modest difference in price, go with the larger 1.5" over the 1.375"?

Sub-total so far is about $2500, plus installation. Ouch!

5. Wheels - aluminum, and I assume the original AR. Given the essentially new tires (and assuming they are both E and S rated), I'm inclined not to change them at this time. When I do change tires, go with steel 16x7", 6-hole wheels that will accept the larger 265 tire?
Or go up a size to 17"? While 95% of the miles will be on paved roads out of Seattle, there is a lot of Forest Service Road access here. Would the 17's help with that?
And what about tire chains? It's very common for chains to be required on the I-90 Pass to avoid a $500 ticket. Wouldn't think 17's would also allow chains.

I will add to Booster's comments with also a thanks to the OP for getting me started on this significant improvement.

Regarding the front spring questions, you can reference my experience with the Delco springs here:

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...s-13041-2.html

Of interest may be the info in how the springs were initially set up with a mild cut and also the comment from Booster on perhaps grinding the top end flat (these do have a top and bottom that the shop needs to be aware of). We've now completed a road trip with these springs and I think that they have settled to the height I was looking for. Mainly though, I would suggest that the shop not just throw them in, but to consider what the suspension height goal is.

Rear airbags (with internal jounce bumpers) worked great, no more slamming onto the overload spring. In our case, I'm very glad I got this version vs the non-bumper bags. We took a couple of good shots along the way and you could feel the bags/bumpers taking the impact. In those cases there was some rebound but it immediately settled. I will upgrade to the Bilsteins as the currently new OEM shocks wear out as I consider those to the weak link now.

Plus the consideration needs to include the suspension being balanced front and rear, otherwise you may wind up with a lot of porpoising front to back or less than your desired ride quality and control.

I'm very pleased with this change and wish I had done it when I first bought the van.

[Floorman]

Have a new to me '02cRT190P 69k miles and loving it already. A major area of concern is the low clearance issues. Who doesn't like the unpaved path? My RV experience is 25 years in the '89 lance camper on a '97 c2500 Chevy (limited slip) and we went everywhere. Chose Hellwigs over airbags after stories of airbag failures in the Baja. Hellwigs are not going to work with 02ChevyRT. The model #9511 for the 3500 Express has the end adjustable ubolts with 5"cross bars that will hit the frame plus there's the gas filler pipe to restrict clearance. I'd like a lift but Booster's comment about getting the rear leafs off the overload spring so that the leafs function is normal, speaks volumes of what I hope to achieve. If the '05RT of the MexicanDoctor's rig benefited from Super Springs something similar to the Hellwigs works and lifts 2-3 inches, then that's my choice #SSA-12 rear suspension resolved and look to the front end. New coils, not coil spacers, but which ones from all those discussed in this thread and of course new B6 Bilsteins all around to match the performance of the new Agilis Michelins 245/75r16 that I already replaced. Any advice from you road proven wrenchers would be appreciated greatly. I plan to go everywhere, every road that I dare, but that is tempered with experience of many failures and the realistic limitations of the Roadtrek. Thanks for all the knowledge in these posts and for the inclusion into this group

[booster]

What year chassis is your van on as that makes a difference. My guess is that you have the older style chassis that went away in the 2002-2003 timeframe. If you have a 5.7 it would be the older version and a 6.0 would indicate the newer version AFAIK.


The two generations have different front suspensions so it makes a big difference. This thread is for the newer generation so may not apply. There is much less information available about the older ones, with the notable exception of a thread by Marcopolo that was very thorough and well documented.


I am a fan of the rear bags as they allow you get a smoother ride from the rear and are adjustable, but others like full new springs or helpers. I the big picture, if you are going to the Baja, all the rest of the van will probably shake to pieces before the bags pop. The RV portions are not designed to handle very tough terrain and rough roads.

[Floorman]

Thanks Booster for the reminder I was in the wrong thread. I do have a '02 5.7. No doubt you have save my bacon as I could be buying all the wrong components. All of these discussions are still incredibly helpful. While I have never had airbags on a truck I can say without question that Hellwigs have never had a puncture in Baja. Maybe they have shook loose, broke in half, but I'll stick with the helper spring. Have spoken with a tech at Super Springs and the SSA -12 seems to be a good choice for the rear. Maybe one of their coils might work. I'll read over Marcopolo thread and thanks for all your contributions.

[Mrchannman]

Originally Posted by Luv2Go

Hi Mrchannman: I'm about to embark on this upgrade. How did your roadtrip go regarding the droop stop and 81004's?

Sorry for the very long delay. I'd call the modifications successful. I do have some spring noise while on rough surfaces but ride and appearance are much better.

[Luv2Go]

Originally Posted by Mrchannman

Sorry for the very long delay. I'd call the modifications successful. I do have some spring noise while on rough surfaces but ride and appearance are much better.

Thanks! I also have some spring noises on rough roads but really like the ride improvement.

For those who are interested, here's my post on it, part of booster's overload leaf removal thread.

[wizardbizzoom]

For those who've had lifted suspensions for a considerable period, what long-term impacts, if any, have you observed on your vehicle's overall durability and maintenance requirements? Any particular wear patterns or unexpected challenges that emerged?

[booster]

Originally Posted by wizardbizzoom

For those who've had lifted suspensions for a considerable period, what long-term impacts, if any, have you observed on your vehicle's overall durability and maintenance requirements? Any particular wear patterns or unexpected challenges that emerged?

We are only up 2" which puts us right at what GM says the stock van without a motorhome conversion should be for height so most everything got better from handling to wear etc because it is back where it was designed for. We have been lifted since that this discussion was active in the beginning and where one of the very first to find an available spring that would work.


When you start doing more than about 2.5" with spring lift you can get into trouble with the upper control arm hitting the frame and getting damaged so that is consideration for going higher.


Knuckle lifts in the 3-5" range always change thing somewhat IMO, and it will bother some and others say it is fine, so that is on the user to decide on.

[hbn7hj]

I used the Moog springs. Everything works very well. No tire wear or alignment problems. The suspension is harsh so you need to be on a smooth road. Pavement cracks are really pronounced. Not bad enough to fix but a rough road will make you slow down.

[Photog]

No wear issues from the suspension lift.
With the extra RV weight in the front suspension, I think we are getting more wear on the lower control arm bushings. I am thinking about installing urethane bushings in the lower control arms.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Photog

No wear issues from the suspension lift.
With the extra RV weight in the front suspension, I think we are getting more wear on the lower control arm bushings. I am thinking about installing urethane bushings in the lower control arms.

If you do the urethane bushings be sure to get the ones you can grease, and grease them regularly.


Urethane, Delrin, any hard bushing material work differently that the factory rubber bushing, which in reality are better to call isolators.


Factory bushings do not let the moving part slide in the assembly, the deform the rubber to get the movement. This gives zero rubbing wear like you would expect with any bushing type application. Failure in the rubber bushings is usually when they get old, brittle and fatigued they can tear or break loose from the bonding that holds them to both pieces of the assembly. This is the reason that all the repair manuals tell you to have the suspension at driving position when you do the final tightening of the bolts. If the lower control arm is hanging at full extension when you tighten them, like many, many people tend to do, you wind up with much more shear in the rubber and bonding and that can lead to early failures.


Urethane and delrin are plain bushings just like brass or steel would be so the parts rotate within the plastic in a rotation. The can actually wear out quite quickly depending on the application. They also can make the ride a bit harsher because they don't deform much and be considerably noisier, especially when they begin to loosen up. They are great for high performance handling vehicles to keep the defection changes in geometry minimal, but not all that great for on the street, especially in very heavy vehicles unless the area was specifically designed for rotating bushings in size and design.


Urethane in swaybar bushings and link ends work well on the street to improve sway and cornering a bit but they don't matter much when they wear, which they do. I think the OEMs are using hard polyethylene for those places now which is very inexpensive for them. Shocks bushings aren't a really bad place either but they do tend to get pretty noisy.

[Photog]

Booster,
Those are good points. I always did final tightening at ride height, for those reasons.
I knew the harder materials would transfer more road noise into the cabin, but I did not consider the extra wear created from functioning like an actual rotating bushing. A “greasable” bushing would definitely be required.
It would be more simple to just install a new set of lower arms, with new bushings and ball joints. The first set lasted 100k miles.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Photog

Booster,
Those are good points. I always did final tightening at ride height, for those reasons.
I knew the harder materials would transfer more road noise into the cabin, but I did not consider the extra wear created from functioning like an actual rotating bushing. A “greasable” bushing would definitely be required.
It would be more simple to just install a new set of lower arms, with new bushings and ball joints. The first set lasted 100k miles.

I would agree with completely on new complete arms, in make good sense.