Roadtrek, idling, and engine generation...

[mlts22]

A few days ago, Jim Hammil posted a statement saying that RT will warranty the DPF Filter [sic] as long as the rest of the rig is under the RT warranty period.

They seem to have a lot of confidence in their engine generation technology, which is going to be present even on the Zion.

[Davydd]

The lengthy discussion has been about the diesel Sprinter for quite a while. Mercedes Benz at Advanced Fest went on record you could engine idle for up to 3 hours but then recommended you drive your van for at least 40 minutes before doing idling again. Advanced RV's own testing said 10 hours idling but Mercedes Benz wasn't ready to concede that far. It would be easy for Hammill to say that. You would never exceed those limits even recharging an E-trek AGM 800ah battery bank. The second alternator is standard with all Advanced RVs. They don't put Onan generators in.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The lengthy discussion has been about the diesel Sprinter for quite a while. Mercedes Benz at Advanced Fest went on record you could engine idle for up to 3 hours but then recommended you drive your van for at least 40 minutes before doing idling again. Advanced RV's own testing said 10 hours idling but Mercedes Benz wasn't ready to concede that far. It would be easy for Hammill to say that. You would never exceed those limits even recharging an E-trek AGM 800ah battery bank. The second alternator is standard with all Advanced RVs. They don't put Onan generators in.

I think they also said they would do the disassembly and have the DPF cleaned, not a new one. No big deal there, as I think cleaning will turn out to be repair of choice for pretty much all brands of diesels.

As you say, you wouldn't normally exceed whomever's limits without driving very often. The exceptions, I think would be running the AC, or the cumulative charging of batteries over longer times boondocking without moving.

[Davydd]

I'm on record that I do not think I will ever deliberately idle my engine to charge batteries or run an air conditioner. I just don't see it happening to ever have to worry about it. Yeah, I know the Texan argument. When I mustered out of the Navy I had a choice between Minneapolis and Houston. I chose wisely.

[mlts22]

I'm assuming RT models have the variable high idle option, so they can start a DPF regen cycle even while parked? This would make the DPF issues pretty much a non-issue.

[markopolo]

Interesting. Here's the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/roadtre ... 633403455/

There have been some questions brought up about the idling of the Mercedes diesel engine to run the engine generator. The majority of the concerns have been raised by people about the DPF Filter. Well Roadtrek is so confident this will not be an issue, we will warranty the DPF as well for the full Roadtrek warranty period. This means we will take your DPF and clean it and return it in 24 hours if it ever comes up..............................

It's natural that questions about the DPF come up as DPF issues affect even regular cargo Sprinters that don't rely on an "engine generator" for power.

Two other natural questions are:

1. How to extend the DPF life?
2. Is cleaning the DPF in a Sprinter permitted or approved by Mercedes?

It sure is an expensive part!

http://www.partswebsite.com/berrydcj...=30341&fl_id=42

Dodge › Sprinter › 2007-2009
List Price : $4,851.00
Your Price : $3,121.10
Core Price: $200.00

1. How to extend the DPF life? I think extended idling would or could have a similar or slightly exaggerated effect as the problems caused by short-distance driving. I'm not a mechanic though so this is just my opinion. Short-distance driving is addressed in Sprinter Operator Manuals:

Link: http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/files/m...ors_Manual.pdf

If the vehicle is predominantly used for
short-distance driving, this could lead to a
malfunction in the automatic cleaning
function for the diesel particle filter. As a
result, fuel may accumulate in the engine
oil and cause engine failure.

Therefore, if you mainly drive short
distances, you should drive on a highway or
on rural roads for 20 minutes every
310 miles (500 km). This ensures sufficient
regeneration of the diesel particle filter.

Therefore, if you mainly drive short distances,
drive on a freeway or an inter-urban road for
20 minutes every 300 miles (500 km). This
facilitates the diesel particle filter's burn-off
process.

2. Is cleaning the DPF in a Sprinter permitted or approved by Mercedes? I don't know the answer.

Link: http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/files/m...nce_Manual.pdf

The maintenance manual only makes reference to checking and replacing it.

Diesel particle filter
Diesel particulate filter checked
Diesel particulate filter replaced
Signature/stamp from an authorized Sprinter dealer

A Google search shows that several places seem to offer DPF cleaning now. Given the high cost of the part though it is not surprising. Under warranty I'd want the part replaced. Less time in the shop etc. After warranty - out of my pocket - then cleaning it would be!

The phrase “never look a gift horse in the mouth” comes to mind. Cleaning paid for by Roadtrek would be preferable to paying for it yourself for sure!

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by mlts22

I'm assuming RT models have the variable high idle option, so they can start a DPF regen cycle even while parked? This would make the DPF issues pretty much a non-issue.

I don't think Roadtrek uses the fast idle option. Someone with an "engine generator" on a Sprinter could let us know for sure. Upfitter info indicates:

Link: http://daimlervansupfitterportal.com...-5-03-2011.pdf (page 101)

The regeneration cannot be triggered manually by the
end user and is done automatically during normal
operation.
If a manual regeneration is required please see an
authorized Sprinter dealers.

[booster]

This warranty from Roadtrek does bring up an interesting question.

If Roadtrek feels it is necessary for them to warranty the DPF (but only for the Roadtrek warranty period), does that mean that they feel Mercedes will not be willing to warrant DPF claims in RVs with engine generators, or that idle a long time for other reasons?

[gerrym51]

the small dpf's in sprinters and cars in North america are not made to be cleaned-they are only made to be replaced. they are not like the big recleanable DPF's onbig trucks.

However there is a way to clean them using asome drilling and a liquid. it's not somthing any that can bedone just anyplace. i rearead Jims post. hedid not say it had to be done in kitchener.justthat it would be cleaned in 24 hours. i do not know the mechanics of how this process will work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=020Mdnt ... e=youtu.be

by the way the dpf will fill up between 125-150 thousand miles even if you treat it perfectly.

think of it as a fireplace that burnsthe particles in diesel fuel. there isan unburnable ash residue just like a fireplace. this unburnable residue eventually fills the dpf.

also different jurisdictions treat the waste from a dpf as hazardous materials.it just can't be done anywhere

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by booster

This warranty from Roadtrek does bring up an interesting question.

If Roadtrek feels it is necessary for them to warranty the DPF (but only for the Roadtrek warranty period), does that mean that they feel Mercedes will not be willing to warrant DPF claims in RVs with engine generators, or that idle a long time for other reasons?

Might be after the Sprinter warranty:

Chassis Warranty
3 year/36,000 mile or 60,000 km base limited warranty and 5 year/100,000 mile or 160,000 km limited diesel engine components warranty as offered by Mercedes. Refer to chassis manufacturers’ website for details.

but during extended E-trek warranty:

Extended RV Warranty - 6 year unlimited mileage/km, RV limited warranty covering the manufacture of the motorhome, appliances, electronics, plumbing and batteries (excludes chassis).

Just guessing though.

[markopolo]

If it is a rare occurrence then replacement rather than cleaning could be quicker and preferable for the customer. I'm thinking on-the-road type repairs. You might limp in or get towed to an authorized Sprinter shop. Ideally the replacement would be done while you wait. Otherwise you're looking at hotel bills etc. Factor in weekends and holidays or shipping delays etc.

[gerrym51]

a new sprinter dpf is currently about 2500 dollars- a full dpf (just full not defective) is not a warranty item -just saying

[markopolo]

I mentioned earlier “never look a gift horse in the mouth”. I'm assuming that, but for Jim's announcement, the owner be otherwise 100% responsible for all costs, direct and indirect, so any help from RT is good.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I mentioned earlier “never look a gift horse in the mouth”. I'm assuming that, but for Jim's announcement, the owner be otherwise 100% responsible for all costs, direct and indirect, so any help from RT is good.

Adding to that, it probably will encourage the other converters to address the issue of Sprinter idling, be it with extended warranties, more testing to see what level really will cause a problem, getting a better commitment from MB, or whatever. It is one thing to tell the customers they will be alright at 3,5,10 hours or some other rule, but totally different if you also offer to pay for the repair if that isn't correct.

I don't think Roadtrek put any limits on it, did they?

[gerrym51]

marko-i edited my earlier post. Jim didnot say it would be cleaned in kitchener-just that it would be cleaned in 24 hours. i don't know the mechanics of doing this.i just want to be precise and fair

[markopolo]

Good point Gerry - I cleaned up the quotes.

[Davydd]

I'm curious. I'm the only Sprinter guy that has posted in this thread so far and thought anyone without a Sprinter would even care. So, I did a search in Sprinter-Source.com throughout the board and in the Roadtrek specific board. The only comments and examples I found were in extreme high mileage Sprinters and work vans. There was nada in the Roadtrek specific forum or other Sprinter RV manufacturers forums. Can anyone cite a thread by any Sprinter Class B owner that has had to have the DPF replaced or cleaned? Hammill didn't even put a mileage limit on the warranty even if a million miles. Seriously, would he do that if it was even a remote concern? So, what is the concern?

[markopolo]

I think they brought this to the fore to let potential purchasers know that they'll help with costs for up to five or six years regardless of mileage.

The DPF is enough of an issue that it warrants mention in the Sprinters Operator Manual:

http://www.mbsprinterusa.com/files/manu ... Manual.pdf

If the vehicle is predominantly used for
short-distance driving, this could lead to a
malfunction in the automatic cleaning
function for the diesel particle filter. As a
result, fuel may accumulate in the engine
oil and cause engine failure.

Therefore, if you mainly drive short
distances, you should drive on a highway or
on rural roads for 20 minutes every
310 miles (500 km). This ensures sufficient
regeneration of the diesel particle filter.

Therefore, if you mainly drive short distances,
drive on a freeway or an inter-urban road for
20 minutes every 300 miles (500 km). This
facilitates the diesel particle filter's burn-off
process.

As a Sprinter owner you could probably answer:

Is it a mileage issue?
Is it an idling issue?
Is it a short-distance driving issue?
All of the above, none of the above?

[obgraham]

I have not found a "fast idle" option on my 2014 chassis Sprinter RT, like I had on the Caterpillar.

It's possible it's buried somewhere, knowing how MB likes to make things more complex.

The DPF regeneration does seem to be automatic rather than owner-instigated.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm curious. I'm the only Sprinter guy that has posted in this thread so far and thought anyone without a Sprinter would even care. So, I did a search in Sprinter-Source.com throughout the board and in the Roadtrek specific board. The only comments and examples I found were in extreme high mileage Sprinters and work vans. There was nada in the Roadtrek specific forum or other Sprinter RV manufacturers forums. Can anyone cite a thread by any Sprinter Class B owner that has had to have the DPF replaced or cleaned? Hammill didn't even put a mileage limit on the warranty even if a million miles. Seriously, would he do that if it was even a remote concern? So, what is the concern?

Davydd- you and Mike Wendland have nevergone over 100,000 miles in your sprinters. the sprinter dpf issue is a cumulative thing. the more idling and low/slowdriving you do in one the quickerthe dpf will fill up. as i saidbefore the dpf is like a fireplace that slowly fills up with unburnable ash.hot regenerations only delay the process.

it's a time mileagething.