Roadtrek, idling, and engine generation...

[markopolo]

I don't even remember much talk about cleaning the DPF in 2012 when the E-Trek was introduced.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I don't even remember much talk about cleaning the DPF in 2012 when the E-Trek was introduced.

what'shappened between 2012 and now. well 2 years have passed.i'll leave it at that.

[markopolo]

A bit off topic,

Earlier I looked through the Sprinter manuals: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/vi...tart=33#p24093

That made me curious to see what was in the Ram (Promaster) and Ford (Transit) manuals.

Ram suggests to avoid prolonged idling in the Promaster Diesel Suplement

http://www.ramtrucks.com/download/pd...sel-SU-1st.pdf

Page 38

Engine Idling
Avoid prolonged idling, long periods of idling may be harmful to your engine because combustion chamber temperatures can drop so low that the fuel may not burn completely. Incomplete combustion allows carbon and varnish to form on piston rings, cylinder head valves, and injector nozzles. Also, the unburned fuel can enter the crankcase, diluting the oil and causing rapid wear to the engine.

Ford Transit Owners Manual

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_ ... 5_2014.pdf

Interesting that in the Ford manual "Operator Commanded Regeneration" is an option on the vans (If Equipped).

"Engine Hours - Idle" appears to be one of items in Information Displays.

Page 107
Warns to avoid shutting the engine down after an extensive idling period.
Says to drive your vehicle for several miles after.

Page 108
Says long periods of idling, especially in cold weather, can cause a buildup of deposits which can cause engine damage.

Page 205
Frequent or extended idling is a condition that defines severe service operation. (maintenance schedule)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not a mechanic, I'm just reading through owner and operating manuals. I don't know if they are being overly cautious or what.
With the warning in the Promaster diesel supplement we may not see that model/engine being used for under hood generator vans.
Ford gives the operator good controls (idling hours counted, & possible operator forced regeneration). The suggestion to not shut down the engine but to drive instead after idling doesn't really fit the profile needed though.

For those two vans we may only see gas engines with the under-the-hood generator options.

There is another factor and that is LifepO4 batteries. With a large enough battery bank you could be self sufficient for days and not need to idle anyway.

Edit: Note: Consult current manuals if these details are important to you. The manuals note that the information is subject to revision if there are changes.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Davydd- you have an opinion.

but one of the reasons i did not move on the sprinter in 2007 was dpf replacement and it cost. in 2007the dpf issues that later developed had not occured.

however- MB said the dpf would have to be replaced between125,000to 150,000miles. the replacement price at the time was 3500 dollars and no possibility of cleaning(this was 2007).


i was not enthused about a diesel but it did get better mileage and was told diesel engines would last at least 500,000 miles. however replacement over 500,000 miles would mean at least 2 dpf's. it was cheaper to buy a new gas engine every 200,000 miles


Davydd-you and Mike Wendlend always get new sprinters before 90,000 miles

Gerry,

You have been consistently badmouthing Sprinters for quite a while. You've complained about everything for the reason you never bought one. Wendland and I have put an appreciable amount of miles on our Sprinters. My last one was 65,000 miles in 3.5 years. I put my money where my mouth is. I have no idea what you have managed since 2007 other than your imagined handwringing. So, what have you learned since 2012? I've learned it is not an issue but you continue to persist. Are you going to go on Roadtreking: The Group now and tell Jim Hammill he's blowing smoke?

Marko,

It is my interest. I own a Sprinter. That's why I should wonder what your interest is. Show me a real life Class B example of this as a problem. Is there a single Sprinter Class B owner on this board or any other board that has shelled out $3,000 to replace their DPF filter?

If you guys have some real concerns and real case examples I would be more interested. But I am telling you, I think this thread exists for the sole reason to justify and rationalize your excuses for your decisions. Sour grapes on my part? I think not. I know if I opened a thread giving my opinion on my ownership of over a dozen Chevy trucks and vans in my lifetime and the fact none were long distance roadworthy after 90,000 miles you would not be too happy. BTW, that's the truth. I was a rather devout Chevy man until GM screwed the pooch.

[gerrym51]

the issue is NOT the sprinter perse-but DPF's required in all diesels. the smal lone in cars and vans clog easier.diselemissions controldevices dating from 2007 are the culprit

[gerrym51]

Davydd-your right-it's just me.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/105 ... facts.html


this paragraph is from this article-i don't knowhow to do off colored backgrounds




The latest diesel engines are less prone to problems, because they are more efficient and burn off soot faster. Even in normal use, however, DPFs tend to need replacement after a certain mileage has elapsed, the rate of which varies between 80,000 and 150,000 miles, dependent on the car make and model, the type of use and whether or not the engine has had regular oil changes with a lubricant that does not contain additives that block the filter.



https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_ash.php


as long as one can get someone else to pay for dpf replacement-or cleaning if you can get it it's just an inconvemence. but to deny it can happen is -well i don't know.

you don't see posts and articles and complaints and pages about gasoline catalytic converters.why.because they really do only breakdown occasionally.

[Davydd]

Gerry,

You're reaching and trying to change the focus. This is a Class B Forum with primarily North American owners and the only diesel at this time is mostly a Sprinter on the road that is offering idle options for charging batteries. So, again, are you going to take all this to Jim Hammill and question his opinion?

[gerrym51]

Davydd-of course not. but on any small diesel dpf you have to do the things to prevent premature filling of dpf.

also i did not start this thread mltts did-and marko put in several info pages. i voice my opinions on it but i did not advocate this topic.

[markopolo]

I am interested in so many things David. I read and learn everyday. You're probably on a constant learning curve too.

It's important to me to make sure the information here is accurate. That's why I'm referencing owner manuals.

For Sprinters, my opinion is "idle then drive". That opinion hasn't changed in two years. That's just my opinion. It does seem to be supported by current owner manuals if my interpretation is correct.

Are you interpreting the information from the manuals differently than me? Do you think they are overly cautious? Do you disagree with the information I posted or is it that you agree with the information but would prefer that someone else posts it? Or is it that you'd rather the information - from the manuals - not be posted at all?

Idling instead of a generator is a fairly new idea for Class B's. Just over two years now. I haven't seen any reports about DPF problems posted by Class B Owners. I hope I never read any reports about DPF problems with Class B's. That's the point of the posts. Be aware of the potential problems and avoid them.

[bobojay]

I think it's important to note that the "idling" situation in relation to battery charging is not the 750-800 rpm normal idle. It's 11-12-1300 rpm, (my understanding), which is high enough done long enough to keep things heated up and cleaned out better than the normal speed, especially in cold climates.
Knowledge and software have changed a lot in the last 2-3 years to help alleviate these issues. An example, we've had 2 software updates on our 2013 Sprinter concerning DEF, DPF & EGR systems since we bought it in April of 2013. I expect more as time goes by....

Just as a side note, on the ProMaster forum, several of the new diesel owners, all with less than 5k miles on them have had check engine, DPF, and DEF lights come on, which resulted in limp home mode, causing a dealership visit. They have some learning to do on that platform even though the engine has been here for several years in Fuso medium duties

[Davydd]

Marko,

Do I think the owner's manuals are overly cautious? Yes, that's what manuals do for liability protection in this day and age. I don't know how you or anyone else manages their Bs but you know my record that I have stated numerous times. 14 hours on the Onan generator over 65,000 miles and at least a year's worth of nights camping. None of it was to charge two lead acid wet cell batteries. Now with 800ah batteries I can tell you I will probably never idle my engine to charge batteries and if I did it would be rare and never exceed the recommendations. So, yes, I think you are being over zealous with your cautions and concerns beyond reason. It's called beating a dead horse.

Here I though Jim Hammill's, CEO of Roadtrek, comments worth repeating again would put an end to your concerns for Class B users. Worth repeating. Read it. If you disagree, why?

Folks, you don't even have to think about checking the DPF until 90000 miles. And then it's not used up just needs a check. And fleets are seeing 300000 miles out of a filter. And big fleets idle constantly. So Roadtrek wants any worries put to rest. This filter is not a worry for you. It's now a Roadtrek warranty item as well and we will handle it. There is no need for anybody to even waste five minutes on the discussion except to note we have your back. Have a great day!

Oh yeah, Happy New Year!

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I don't even remember much talk about cleaning the DPF in 2012 when the E-Trek was introduced.

I do remember seeing some information on it back then, when I went looking for information during the E-trek discussion, where the idling question had come up.

http://classbforum.com/phpBB2/viewto...tart=44#p12750

I don't have the places saved that I found then, but they were not the mainstream type dpf cleaning companies we are seeing now. More like flying under the radar places to avoid the epa and MB.

[booster]

I think that Roadtrek's DPF warrantee is a good calculated risk on their part. There is no doubt that the idling question has come to the forefront lately (you can argue if it should have or not, but it is there) and Roadtrek is basing a lot of their technology, and with it potential sales, on engine generators. As we have seen in the postings, many folks never would need to idle their engines to charge, as they drive a lot, and regularly, so it doesn't matter much there.

Where there very likely could be an issue is with the customers who walk in the dealer to look at Roadtreks. They may be Class A or C folks that have RV'd for years, with much of it parked for longer periods in areas that they needed their generators to function and charge batteries, so they are going to be leary of no genny, and put the idle question on top of it and they may bolt. Same could be true with newbies, who are comparing to other models that still have generators, and hear from those sales folks about the horrors of idling to run things. Roadtrek needed to address these customers and has, and I think they have very low risk in it.

How much risk? To have Roadtrek have to pay (for a cleaning, not replacement) somewhere in the $500 range (my guess could be way off), you would have to be within the 6 years of warrantee time, so you would have to either have low miles and huge abuse of the recommendations (not real likely), or drive 20K+ miles a year every year for 6 years (also not real likely) to get high enough miles for a not much abuse plugging. I think this is a very safe thing for them to do and will gain much more in sales than it will ever cost them in repair costs.

I don't think the warrantee has a lot to do with them having all kinds of confidence that the problem of idling is not real, more that it is a conscious business decision to remove it from the discussion.

[markopolo]

One thing that has changed in the Mercedes Sprinter operator manuals that I downloaded (2012 & 2015) is the inclusion of "is stationary for long periods" with "short-distance driving" (page 153 2015 Sprinter Operators manual). That could have prompted the new warranty.

That 6 year E-trek warranty, even before the DPF inclusion, is unmatched in the industry as far as I know.

Davydd - please self edit your post comment about Gerry. If you need help let me know. He's been very consistent in his opinion on topic of DPF's over the years. That's a manufacturer supported group so the dynamics are a little different. Jim is a guest of honor, rightfully so, on that group and is treated as such. It's pretty rare I bet for a CEO or President of a company to be so publicly accessible.

Point taken about beating a dead horse. I can go on and on about some topics - like batteries.

[gerrym51]

Davydd- you realize that Jim Hammill gets comments forwarded to him from this site. he has some of mine that i know regarding the tppl agm battery.

and you are correct about dpf comments on the Roadtrekkers site. several months ago i posted some comments about it and was threatened with expulsion by Mike Wendland-so of course i don't post about dpf's any more.

Jim Hammill is running a business and he's a nice guy too.


Davydd-i've re-considered and edited out the last half of this post. it' snew years .Happy New year to you and everyone-I hope Alvar works out as you hope.

[markopolo]

I think Jim is genuinely interested in continual improvement of RT products. He asks for photos and info etc. if an issue is brought up. Then he follows up.