Roadtrek Ecotrek and Voltstart

[gregmchugh]

With the internal battery management control inside each module doing cell balancing are there still any issues with balancing the modules? If the cells within each module are getting charged correctly and kept balanced isn't that all you need?

I expect there may still be a need for correct cable lengths between battery modules to prevent uneven discharge between modules but is that even a major issue anymore with this setup if you avoid discharging so much that the battery modules start going offline?

[booster]

Originally Posted by BobB

Thinking of some of the comments/observations over on the "Should boat builders get into the RV business?" thread, maybe they should have considered getting someone like MasterVolt, Victron, or BlueSea to have designed a complete proven system and used their brand. Sort of like when a car manufacturer has a Bose sound system.

Oh, that's right --- "we want our name on it and we can save money, too. ". $1.5 million and this is where they got to? I hope it all works out in the end, but........

I agree completely, especially the last line!

There are lots of folks (probably everybody) that know more about boats than I do, but early on in my charging system research I was in the process of trying to find the newly released Blue Sea charger and got tied up with a vendor in Wisconsin. He sold the parts, but his prime business was designing power systems for spendy boats. He preferred product was Victron, but he used whatever worked best or what the customers wanted. Apparently, this business model is very common in the boat world, as he would even be going to boat yards where the boats were being built to work with the yards. He sent me some information links on stuff he had done, and it was really amazing stuff. Of course the electrical system costs more than an entire ARV, but you get the point.

From what he had told me, designers like him were doing a very large part of the systems, with only the larger manufacturers doing it in house with full time staff. They would also do service and repair on systems from all over the world if they got stuck here. I would think if you were going to do a contract design, one of these guys would be your go to as they know all the components and how they work together.

I also would say there is near zero chance Roadtrek will do anything like this. They seem to have desire to use lower reputation components and inexperienced contractors.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

With the internal battery management control inside each module doing cell balancing are there still any issues with balancing the modules? If the cells within each module are getting charged correctly and kept balanced isn't that all you need?

I expect there may still be a need for correct cable lengths between battery modules to prevent uneven discharge between modules but is that even an issue anymore with this setup?

I can monitor each cell for temperature and voltage on my Silverleaf screen monitor on the Li Ion Battery Status screen. If the cells got out of range the "Pack Normal" would change to an alert and cell balancing would ensue.



Also, I can check the status on the DC Power screen here. That screen in this view shows the whole battery bank with overall average temperature and SOC in percentage. The voltage is shown and there is a 1 amp draw at the time I took the photo. The blank Inverter box means I'm not plugged in or driving, the inverter is turned off and there is no charging. If I turn the inverter on and ran any 120V draws you would see while unplugged motion arrows pointing to the Inverter box and amperage draw off the battery. If plugged in or driving you will see motion arrows from that inverter box pointing to the battery and what is going on be it bulk or float charging and how much. Just once did I see while plugged in the cell balancing indicator in that Inverter icon. It does happen but not all that frequently I guess. Basically at a glance I can see the status of everything going on. BTW, tapping on that battery icon brings up the battery status screen.



As for cable lengths there is one big 4/0 cable from the alternator to the battery bank and same from the inverter/charger to the battery bank. 4/0 is about 1/2" in diameter. Bus bars from there are also used to connect the individual battery banks. There is no spaghetti like wiring.

[gregmchugh]

davydd, why quote my post when you didn't respond with anything relevant to my questions regarding how the Roadtrek system configuration might or might not work?

[BobB]

Pleasureway now puts 200Ah Lithiums (Eco-Ion) in their RVs as standard - seems to be (2) 100Ah batteries.

Any reports from any owners on how those are doing? Problems?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

davydd, why quote my post when you didn't respond with anything relevant to my questions regarding how the Roadtrek system configuration might or might not work?

Because the previous post #280 was mine and I mentioned battery management. I didn't know Roadtrek even had any internal battery cell management system or cell balancing. I did. It didn't look as if they do from the few photos I have seen.

Why are you speculating so much about how Roadtrek works? Why don't you just ask them?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Because the previous post #280 was mine and I mentioned battery management. I didn't know Roadtrek even had any internal battery cell management system or cell balancing. I did. It didn't look as if they do from the few photos I have seen.

Why are you speculating so much about how Roadtrek works? Why don't you just ask them?

Why ask questions when you know very well what the answer is?

Of course we all know that Roadtrek won't tell you squat about what is in their system and I think they have the right to do that if they want to.

I personnally speculate about technical things because I am a geek and always curious about how things work and because it keeps my mind active now that I am retired and don't have technical work to challenge me every day.

I personnaly prefer the Advanced RV approach to just about everything compared to Roadtrek and I am more than familiar with all the detailed aspects of their battery and electrical system from the many posts describing them in great detail.

While the Advanced RV system is superior in many ways in my view, I also believe that functionally the approach that Roadtrek has chosen can provide their customers with the same basic functionality, of course this is after they get the issues fixed. Roadtrek has decided to not implement the display and control features that are available to Advanced RV buyers for who knows how many reasons (cost, customer preference, extra development time, etc.) but in my view, that is not a key aspect of the functional value provided to the customer.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Why are you speculating so much about how Roadtrek works? Why don't you just ask them?

That's a joke, right?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Because the previous post #280 was mine and I mentioned battery management. I didn't know Roadtrek even had any internal battery cell management system or cell balancing. I did. It didn't look as if they do from the few photos I have seen.

Why are you speculating so much about how Roadtrek works? Why don't you just ask them?

Each Ecotrek 200 module has all the battery management functions and battery heating function internal to the module. The system is built up from these individual modules so there is no overall battery management of the whole bank. Early vans had a remote display/control panel that they no longer include in the system which suggests that there may also be some capability to interface with the module for data/control features.

[avanti]

The honest truth is that many of RTs technical woes are a result, not of Li technology per se, but rather of their decision to jump into the relatively unexplored world of 24VDC. This is a step that ARV evidently decided against for now, despite the fact that such systems very likely represent the future. This looks like uncharacteristic conservatism on ARVs part -- I guess there is something to be said for only biting off what you can chew.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

The honest truth is that many of RTs technical woes are a result, not of Li technology per se, but rather of their decision to jump into the relatively unexplored world of 24VDC. This is a step that ARV evidently decided against for now, despite the fact that such systems very likely represent the future. This looks like uncharacteristic conservatism on ARVs part -- I guess there is something to be said for only biting off what you can chew.

I would have to agree this could be a big part of it, and although there have been a lot of 12/24 volt boat systems around, Roadtrek obviously didn't understand the premise or problems.

While 24v may be the wave of the future, we may find that the RV industry quickly moves past that to 36 or 48 volt systems. Once you get to the point of having higher voltage than 12v, you need have a converter anyway, so you might as well go higher and save the amps, wiring, and losses. The forklift and golf cart folks have gone that way. Of course if the automotive sector goes 24v, than that would change everything.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by booster

I would have to agree this could be a big part of it, and although there have been a lot of 12/24 volt boat systems around, Roadtrek obviously didn't understand the premise or problems.

While 24v may be the wave of the future, we may find that the RV industry quickly moves past that to 36 or 48 volt systems. Once you get to the point of having higher voltage than 12v, you need have a converter anyway, so you might as well go higher and save the amps, wiring, and losses. The forklift and golf cart folks have gone that way. Of course if the automotive sector goes 24v, than that would change everything.

The automotive sector is moving to 48V Start-Stop mild hybrid systems in many 2017 models. This helps them meet the new stricter emissions standards. 48V seems to also be a tipping point for optimal inverter efficiency. Large telco inverter's are all 48V. 48V also seems to be the highest you can go without invoking all sorts of extra safety requirements.

[booster]

I think Boxster is correct on the 48v. While I was working 50v was the threshold to have to suit up in the horrible "arc flash" protection, which made it impossible to be much of anything useful.

I think it would be great to see a 48v based class B. Think of the wire weight and cost you would save. It would easily pay for 12v converter if you needed one.

[gregmchugh]

Is it easy to get a 48v aux generator similar in power to the ones they use now in the Roadtreks and Advanced RV?

[Davydd]

Here it is. Not UG but GU. Roadtrek's Underhood Generator explained. Kinda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEJQaC_UCXg

[wincrasher]

Did the guys from South Park animate this?

[gregmchugh]

There are videos on Ecotrek and Voltstart also. Clearly in-line with their strategy of keeping everything simple and targeted to the non-technical average customer. New owners manuals now have no technical data just simple instructions with lots of photos. Not really a bad approach if you understand their average customer is more likely to use these manuals than the previous manuals.

[wincrasher]

I think it's a horrible strategy. More likely it's not a strategy at all - just not wanting to actually write a detailed technical manual. They think they are saving money, when in actuality, they are only going to spend lots of tech time answering simple questions.

I hope the other manufacturers don't adopt the "our customers are too stupid to understand our expensive product" approach. My expectations for documentation increases linear-ally with the price paid.

[booster]

They may be limiting what the customer gets to keep that information from the independent repair shops, so you have to go back to Roadtrek or a dealer to beg for help.

[gregmchugh]

Wincrasher, After being on Roadtreking for many years, I can say with some assurance that their average customer is not anything like you but very much like their target for these videos and new manuals. They go gaga over these videos over there...