New Roadtrek RS E-Trek

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by booster

.........Very interesting. It almost appears that 6 of the batteries are in the rear and two under the hood? Would they have eliminated the starting battery? Don't know if Sprinter still puts it under the front seat.

Hard to tell how many batteries are in the rear. I can see four for sure. The inverter looks to be 24 volt so that make sense.

Jim from Roadtrek said the E-Trek has 12 volts, 24 volts and 36 volts systems.......

Could it be 4 in the rear at 24 volts for the inverter. 2 batteries amidships for 12 volt lights and water pump etc. Then something combing the six batteries to get 36 volts.......... Is it a 36 volt solar panel? Complete guesses here by me - I don't understand the E-Trek yet.

Mike Wendland posted a video on YouTube about the batteries but I can't see anything. The audio seem to indicate two places for batteries underneath though. I'm not sure though.
Video:
[youtube:1dgysxnm]SjusQ3-Cerg[/youtube:1dgysxnm]

[markopolo]

Any ideas as to what is in this compartment on the RS E-Trek?



The inverter / charger and the solar controller (I think) is in the rear: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/po...t=2345#pr13889

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

Very interesting. It almost appears that 6 of the batteries are in the rear and two under the hood? Would they have eliminated the starting battery? Don't know if Sprinter still puts it under the front seat.

In my Sprinter there are no batteries under the hood. The chassis battery is located under the driver's floor. You have to lift a panel to get to it. They don't put batteries under the seat anymore.

The E-Trek house battery compartment appears to be a basement storage box in the back similar to what I have in my GWVan that is just for storage. I see 6 batteries there but there should be room for two more in the back flanking the sides of that box. My two house batteries flank my basement storage box.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Any ideas as to what is in this compartment on the RS E-Trek?



The inverter / charger and the solar controller (I think) is in the rear: http://www.classbforum.com/phpBB2/po...t=2345#pr13889

That's a new power assist option in the E-Trek's fully adjustable convertible couch/bed, that allows it to be configured into a fully functional padded massage table. The cutout with the black 6" full range speaker below it, is where your face goes, when lying face down on the table. During a massage, the speaker plays soothing background "answers" to technical questions, set to music, by Jim and the rest of the design group. It's also proprietary, btw.

[markopolo]

Now you've sold me on one Mike!

[Davydd]

Mike,

The only problem with that is the E-Trek doesn't have a generator to give you that magic fingers bed effect.

[Davydd]

I didn't spend a lot of time with the E-Trek. I figured Booster would be more interested and he is a lot more technical than I.

I did learn I was wrong. There are 6 batteries in the back as I guessed, but two under the hood and it is a 24 volt system. This E-Trek did not go the Lithium-ion option. They are saying it will run the air-conditioner for 9 hours.

The Great West Van Legend EX had 4 underfloor under the sofa battery compartments.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Mike,

The only problem with that is the E-Trek doesn't have a generator to give you that magic fingers bed effect.

I'm speechless. Magic fingers effect?

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I didn't spend a lot of time with the E-Trek. I figured Booster would be more interested and he is a lot more technical than I.

I did learn I was wrong. There are 6 batteries in the back as I guessed, but two under the hood and it is a 24 volt system. This E-Trek did not go the Lithium-ion option. They are saying it will run the air-conditioner for 9 hours.

The Great West Van Legend EX had 4 underfloor under the sofa battery compartments.

You got more info than previous show-goers.
I didn't know the GW Legend had 4 batteries. I guess that is the trend now. Advanced RV, Great West and Roadtrek are all going with larger battery bank options.

[booster]

I think we got there before Davydd did. Dale gave us the info that he had on the e-trek, which was the standard Roadtrek blurb we have heard all along. Not his fault for sure, just what he has been told. I asked about the AC, and got the same 9 hour quote, which is technically true if you take the batteries to 0%, based on what we think we know. Also got the charge the batteries in 40 mintues, which we pretty much know is not possible if they are at 0%. Same old on that I also asked about the Mercedes rules on idling, and Dale really knew nothing about it. He suggested coming back when the Roadtrek rep was there, but we didn't get back for that. The B dealers were very busy compared to everyone else, in our observation. Almost all the B's have also gotten very expensive at $100K++ for almost all Sprinters and in the $90's for Chevies and Fords. The exception was the Winnebago ERA, which was a 2013 model on a 3500 Sprinter dually for $80K. We have never been impressed with the Winnebago style or quality in the past, but it was not all that bad. A bit plasticy, but tolerable. This one had the v-shaped rear bed and tiny front couch. The bed is elevated at least 4" to increase the storage underneath. Tight headroom at the bed and a very thin mattress, but a reasonable compromise, we thought. Two TV's furnished with it also. We had always thought the Winnebago's had too much downside to offset the low price, but now we think it was the best bang for the buck of all the B's at the show--very surprising to us.

Observations-

Roadtrek-OK quality, better than it was 3 years ago, but surely not spectacular-some innovation-total lack of information-high pricing ($95K for a C190P).

Pleasure-way-decent quality-no Chevy shown-Excel somewhat dated-nothing really new or impressive

Airstream-not worth mentioning

Leisure-very good quality-very high pricing-nice features

Great West-very good quality-very high pricing-nice features, especially the sliding couch for rear storage

Winnebago-see above

Our biggest disappointment was the size of the bathrooms (to the big side). The only one with an "aisle" shower was the C190P Roadtrek. All the rest used HUGE amounts of volume on their bathrooms, that, in our opinion, could be put to much better use (like actually hauling stuff). Personal preference, I know, but still and irritation for us.

Disappointing, but not surprising, that no new e-trek info was available, but we kind of expected that. I don't think they want all the specs out.

We saw nothing that would get us out of our 07 C190P, "somewhat" modified, Roadtrek, which cost us, new, barely 60% of what they are now, or double if we wanted a Sprinter.

[markopolo]

Wow - nice show to go to. Looks like most of the B manufacturers had some models there.

[booster]

Forgot one thing. Most of the B manufacturers have start to make their own TV mounts, with locks and clamps to keep them from moving around while driving like the store bought ones do. Some looked very nice and would be a nice addition for those of us who fight the floppy TV mounts. Roadtrek was the notable exception to the rule, and was still using the off the shelf, floppy mount.

[booster]

This post relayed from Jim Hammill just appeared the Yahoo board. As past statements have been, it relies heavily on the proprietary claims.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/roa ... sage/82624

Very carefully worded in many spots--

Emphasizes the 1600 AH and says an amp is an am--technically true--but it is watts that do the work so a 6 volt amp will only do 1/2 the work of a 12 volt amp. He then speaks of the solar in watts. With the RVs going to higher and multivoltage systems, I think they are going to have to go to a watt-hr rating and get rid of the AH rating.

Anecdotal data on running the AC on batteries, that stress long times, but give no operation conditions (except running at night in one case).

He also takes a, not very veiled, shot, at all of us that have questioned the claimed capabilities of the e-trek, warning us not to give advice to e-trek owners (more likely he meant prospective buyers), because we don't have knowledge of the systems (proprietary again), or the training, experience, and intellect of the Roadtrek Engineers. Obviously, from these comments, and his response we saw on this board, he is getting very tired of folks asking these questions.

The solution, to me, would be for Roadtrek to answer the questions. The basic ones are easy. What does the AC draw, how big is it. How efficient is the inverter. How far is the battery draw down in the life calculations and in the van generator recharge time claims. What does Roadtrek have from Mercedes that says they can idle the Sprinter as much as they would need to do the claims. Do they have a high idle setting and how fast if they do.

None of this is proprietary. There are quite a few engineers on here and other boards who can easily evaluate technical information competently. Obviously, the general public isn't technically trained, and I agree with him about that. That is why it IS important for those that are technically trained to help the public understand the claims, and question them if the don't make sense. No one that I have seen has said the claims aren't true, just that they don't add up or make sense. I am sure all involved would be very happy if all the claims were exactly as claimed as it would be a huge advancement in RV design.

Oh, by the way, I just saw an ad for a .22 caliber pistol that says it will drop an elephant at 3000 yards due to new, proprietary design, and it doesn't kick at all. Should I order one?

[booster]

And now a fiesty retort from the guy with blog, when he was asked about some of the unanswered questions.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/roa ... sage/82625

I think Roadtrek is going on the offense, which may be a good thing, as it will brings forward.

[Davydd]

Booster,

If you didn't get any more information E-Trek than I, then I guess they are keeping it close. The more I look at the short driver side kitchen the more I hate it. Airstream had that same exact design with a counter higher than normal kitchen standards that cut off a third of the window, the fridge on the floor and the microwave under the counter. All in all from my professional architect design perspective a really piss poor design. So I asked the Airstream guy why. He went into the spiel that with the four seats Airstream was selling to tourers not campers. It is kind of hard to argue success since #1 sellers Roadtrek and Airstream have that design.

I was first given 4 hours on the air-conditioner off the batteries by Dale and yesterday he corrected himself and said 9 hours. Still, knowing my experience with batteries if you go to sleep every night and run the batteries down with the AC I suspect you'll end up replacing them often. That's a big expense. Also, even if the 9 hour claim is real, batteries lose their efficiency rather fast. There is no redundancy backup. The backup systems like solar are not going to work efficiently if you like to camp in the north woods or have rainy or cloudy days. Seems like a major expense unless you live in the south and more so in the southwest.

I'm sticking with my impressions that the all-electric is mostly overkill. I've dry camped numerous times 5 days in a row without driving about much or even running my generator much with our standard setup. I even managed to do so with my one house battery 2005 Pleasure-way Plateau with a five day non-moving stay in a national forest combined with 13 of 14 days in California campgrounds without electricity. I have two batteries now and have yet to get much more than a fourth down. 4 batteries would be an absolute luxury.

[Davydd]

Booster,

To access those links you have to join the Roadtrek Yahoo Group. Since I don't have a Roadtrek, if they are anything like the Pleasure-way group, I would not get access.

[booster]

Another one from Roadtrek

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/roa ... sage/82629

Davydd-I will try to copy them out and put them in another post here.

[booster]

First one

Hello Folks,

On the topic of the Roadtrek RS E-trek, we have been copied for many weeks
now on many comments, and on much of the discussion on this Yahoo forum on
the E-trek.
Your comments are useful to us, and we appreciate hearing your speculation
and ideas. I get little clips here and there, and I really can't monitor
all different forums. I struggle to keep up, in fact doing much of my
online work at night.

There have been engineering questions raised here that Joe cannot answer,
as the answers are proprietary and we have not released them to anybody
outside the core design and service staff who need the info.

There has been a question raised about component variation in the first few
E-treks. There is constant change, much testing, and development of new
systems with various components on the E-trek. In the end, we have found
good quality parts of several brands, that meet our exacting standards.
In development units, it is very normal for there to be minor component
variation. All our new units in development are like this. Always have
been, and always will be. We will not throw out a perfectly good inverter
to make everything identical. That would be foolish and unnecessary, when
they function perfectly.

In response to the question regarding advising owners on the E-trek, I can
tell you that it is not a good idea for people on this forum, unless they
have engineered drawings, or a very significant experience with designing
and manufacturing highly engineered electrical systems, to give any advice
or explanations on how the system functions. Roadtrek staff have the
training, expertise, and the drawings to do the job safely, and
efficiently. This product is far too new to do anything else.

I have explained previously that the system is proprietary. And you can
look at it from a thousand different ways, but what makes it proprietary
is, in fact, also proprietary information, and I will not release that
information.. Speculation that I have read, is simply wrong. If this
could be done by bolting parts together, everybody would do it.

To answer another question, the unit has 1600 Amp hours worth of battery
storage, (An amp is an amp) The unit has a daylight Solar panel at 240 W.
The unit has an engine generator. The unit has optional lithium batteries,
and an optional Fuel Cell generator. And it has many other features that
can be studied. Some are beign upgraded, some the option prices are
dropping as suppliers continue to work with us on this incredible project.

One of our owners used an E-trek for 38 hours without charging even once
(solar only), with AC running for ten hours at night, and all other normal
usages. They ran the engine for 40 minutes to top off the batteries, when
the inverter sounded a quiet charging alarm for them. Then it worked for
another couple days. Easy boondocking, was the comment!!.

Another owner lasted three days, with no charging (other than solar), and
then had to go and get water. We are installing another 12 gallons of
water in the E-trek, to allow an extra 2 days of boondocking as a result.
Great owner feedback. Great performance of the E-trek.

This experience has been fantastic, and we look forward to continue to make
our product better and better and hearing your ideas and questions!

Jim Hammill

This cracks me up. People don't think it works? Based on what? Have they seen
one, used one?
All I can say is it performed flawlessly for me as I headed south last month for
a quick trip to Georgia and Florida. I didn't get a chance to put it to multiday
use boondocking but I ran air all night on batteries in the Georgia woods and
had plenty of juice left the next morning.
I am not an engineer.
But I can say that I know I could not have done that on the RS Adventurous I had
before.
I don't really know "exactly" how it works or want to undertand what wire goes
where and what every little reading is.... I just want to use it!
I've read some of the so-called "experts" here who have voiced all their doubts
but, seriously, why would Roadtrek sell something that didn't work?
I am delighted with every single part of the eTrek I have experienced so far.
I wish it was warmer so I could use it more! I have trips planned every month
now going forward and will be glad to share what I experience.
But please now I don't blog and write about every connection and all the
technical details.
I write about the RV lifestyle. That's what I concentrate on.
And, so far, for the way I like to RV... the eTrek has been my dream RV.
I don't mean to sound flippant. I understand people have technical questions.
But, again, I'm no engineer. I'm just an RVer who chose an eTrek and, so far,
is very happy.
Technical questions should go to Roadtrek... not me.

--- In roadtrek@yahoogroups.com, "Leon/Loyce" wrote:
>
> Mike,
> Am I missing your reports on the eTrek? I haven’t seen one since the
hunting trip, I guess the first one. There has been some talk on this forum
that it would be impossible for it to do (electrically) what Roadtrek says.
Would you care to weigh in on this?
>
> From: pcmikewend
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 8:40 AM
> To: roadtrek@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [roadtrek] Heading to the snowy Upper Peninsula of Michigan
>
>
> I'm taking the eTrek up to Marquette, MI next week to cover the UP200 dogsled
race across the wilderness. It's a big race, a qualifier for the Idiatrod.
> Because I need to shower for some formal dinners and meetings and the eTrek is
winterized, we're probably going to overnight in a hotel and use the RT all day
as a warming house and mobile studio to edit my reports.
> Anyone else going up there?
> I'm meeting one RT owner from Minnesota who does a lot of work for on the
dogsled racing circuit who will be there. But if others are there, I'd love to
meetup.
> On the way back, I'll be stopping by St. Ignace where they host the Labatt
Blue UP Pond Hockey Championship on a stretch of frozen Lake Michigan. No, I'm
not driving the RT out on the ice!
> Figure all this cold weather use will make me appreciate those hot summer days
sure to come.
> But these events draw thousands so if there are other RTs heading up, let me
know. Love to take photos of RTs in cool (literally) locations!
>
>>
One more

Hi Folks, another quick note.

Wow, I just got a really angry, frustrated email from an angry armchair
engineer this morning, who demanded that we release drawings and proof the
E-trek works.

He sent me calculations showing how it could not. And those calculations
were completely incorrect, mainly because of the assumptions made by the
individual.

He says we only have six batteries, for instance. He SAW a photo, that
proves it. Well, I guess someone stole two, or maybe he missed them!!

And the general tone amongst some of you is the same on this forum. The
fact is, most of the assumptions were completely wrong.

This system is really complex. It is not something you can reverse
engineer from a couple of dealer photos, nor is it worth your time trying.

If you don't believe, that's OK. Some people don't believe that men were
on the moon. I am ok with that. We are really comfortable with the fact
that we can reach out and touch these units, and they work!!

Jim Hammill
Roadtrek Motorhomes, Inc

[markopolo]

I posted the following on the Yahoo Group and am re-posting it here because I think it is a very non-technical explanation of how amp hours relate to volts.

------------------------------------------------------

re: (RS E-Trek) 1600 Amp hours worth of battery storage

You have to discuss voltage with amp hour capacity.
Other Roadtreks have two 6 volt batteries but when Roadtrek lists the specifications they don't double the amp hours as they do with the E-Trek promotion.

Eight 6 volt 200 amp hour batteries combined together to give 12 volts would have a capacity of 800 amp hours at 12 volts.
Eight 6 volt 200 amp hour batteries combined together to give 24 volts would have a capacity of 400 amp hours at 24 volts.

The RS E-Trek looks to have a 24 volt DC inverter. To me it looks like Roadtrek is suggesting that that 24 volt inverter in the E-Trek has 1600 amp hours available to it from the battery bank. It does not. At 24 volts there is 400 amp hours in the battery bank.

A 120 watt appliance (like a TV maybe) would use:

20 amp hours at 6 volts from the 1600 Amp hour battery bank
10 amp hours at 12 volts from the 800 Amp hour battery bank
5 amp hours at 24 volts from the 400 Amp hour battery bank

An 1800 watt appliance (like an Air Conditioner) would use:

300 amp hours at 6 volts from the 1600 Amp hour battery bank
150 amp hours at 12 volts from the 800 Amp hour battery bank
75 amp hours at 24 volts from the 400 Amp hour battery bank

I doubt that there is any item in an E-Trek that runs on 6 volts so why use that misleading amp hour rating.

----------------------------------------------------

There are enough people questioning both the 1600 amp hour battery bank claim and the ability to charge that battery bank in 30 or 40 minutes to make it worthwhile to Roadtrek to explain it. They don't need to reveal any company secrets in showing that it has and does what they claim.

[booster]

Marko, I agree completely, and am getting totally amazed at the Roadtrek reaction, especially on the Yahoo board, where nearly everyone is a Roadtrek owner/supporter.

Does Hammill not understand that lots of his customers are engineers and technical folks that understand the benefits of a B, and many probably have more skills than his engineers?

When a management type starts making disparaging comments like "armchair engineers", in reference to his current or future customers, he is shooting himself and his business in the foot. I would bet, and I am sure we could prove it, that there are more years of "real" engineering experience and education on the boards that are questioning Roadtrek, than there are on the Roadtrek engineering staff.

As I said, the reaction from Roadtrek is kind of surreal, and is starting to remind me of the "I have never used performance enhancing drugs" exclamations we have heard so often. Insist and deflect.

Personally, I will sign any nondisclosure agreement Roadtrek wants. Give me the information and I will evaluate it from a technical, non biased, position. But, please, quit insulting me and many other Roadtrek owners, it is beneath you.