Hymer to Exhibit Grand Canyon ‘B’ at Elkhart Open House

[markopolo]

Looks like Hymer still has plans to enter the North American market.

On RV Business: Hymer to Exhibit Grand Canyon ‘B’ at Open House | RV Business

Notable quote:

It’s all about the style and the quality — how we produce our product. It’s the quality of furniture, the installation, even the quality of windows we use. It’s quality that we are going to bring to this product.

Previous Hymer / Hymercar discussions:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...show-3291.html

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...-usa-3316.html

[BobB]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Looks like Hymer still has plans to enter the North American market.

And "The Grand Canyon, Marcon elaborated, is “a premium product — and if you have a premium product, you need to have premium dealers to provide quality service to the end customer. "

Will be interested in the pricing - base and options, and MSRP vs Actual off the lot.

[mlts22]

I was wondering where they went to, as they went quite quiet for a time. Hymer is a good company, otherwise they wouldn't have the sheer marketshare that they do in Europe, and I've not read many horror stories about their rigs, and that is a big plus.

I wonder where they will enter the market. The best option would be to start off with a relative loss leader to get mindshare, then go from there, aiming their rig at the Travato market just to get their RVs on the street and a presence on the roads.

If they price similar to the Airstreams or Roadtrek RS/SS models, Americans will just snub their offering, expecting a three pointed star, not a RAM logo on something that pricy. In Europe, Mercedes are not as big a deal for a name brand as they are here, and at the $100k price point here in the US, the Sprinter chassis is pretty much expected.

I do say Hymer has an uphill battle. They are trying to crack a relatively small market that has a lot of potential, so they are going to need to spend money up front on advertising (getting people to buy their rigs instead of Chevy Suburbans), and trying to find a price point that is acceptable where a class "B" goes from an oddity to how it was in the 1970s when they were in common use as soccer mom vehicles.

[wincrasher]

I don't know, it may be more complicated to startup in this kind of business than one may assume.

At first I was thinking that it was a slam-dunk to just build them in Europe (keeping their existing production lines busy) and then simply import them. All you'd need Stateside is a dealer network (only! ). The advantage being the drop in the value of the Euro and the shared overhead with otherwise not-fully-utilized production lines.

But I think there is alot to complicate that and may diminish any cost advantages. The difference in the power equipment, appliances and additional equipment for North America spec may be a problem. So too may be building to the applicable codes and getting RVIA certification. You'd most certainly have to import US spec vans to Europe to then fit them and ship them out.

The other path is to set up US or Canada production. Not an easy or cheap undertaking. So from the git-go, they have no price advantage over a US/Canada. So they have to sell on design aspects and a premium price. I think that is a tough sell unless they can show it has all the equipment of a US spec class B - which means generators, air conditioning and black & gray tanks. It's a pretty high hurdle.

[ClassB4Me]

Airstream brought European built Westfalias to America and made some changes at port. Today, it will be much easier. Many of the appliance makers in Europe are now in the states. Most importantly Hymer is a huge company and is familiar with the market and the RV segment.

[Jostalli]

I thought they already "entered the market". Last year they had the Grand Canyon at the RV shows. I believe they sold that one for pretty cheap.

[mlts22]

I read that European makers have five major engineering issues to solve:

1: US rigs need a generator and A/C, where European rigs can survive without.
2: US rigs use 120VAC, and it is a major engineering feat to go from 240 volts and 50 Hz to 120 volts and 60 Hz.
3: US rigs use black/gray water tanks, while European rigs use cassette toilets and a dump valve underneath for gray water. This doesn't sound like much, but it requires a lot of tank placement and thought so that both tanks can drain. Winnebago did some magic to make the 59G work by using sump pumps, but that means another piece that can fail.
4: The US doesn't have the European appliance selection. This was far worse a few years ago, but Seitz windows (a staple for RVs in Europe) are not sold in the US, so the RV maker has to figure out what to do instead.
5: The chassis sold in the US are stripped down compared to European counterparts. Fiat sells a Ducato chassis for class "C"s overseas that is specially made for motorhome upfits (www.fiatcamper.com), that (come next model year) can sport even factory four wheel drive for class "C"s, "B"s, and class "A"s.

US and Canadian RV makers grew up dealing with these issues and engineering around things. However, assuming Ford and Fiat actually start getting serious about selling chassis that are good for motorhomes, things can completely change in 1-2 model years.

The more RV makers (especially "B") makers, the better.

[ClassB4Me]

Thanks for the updated information. When you look at the specs on the Hymer USA site it is clear, no generator was listed, a cassette toilet was mentioned, and air-conditioning was not mentioned.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by mlts22

2: US rigs use 120VAC, and it is a major engineering feat to go from 240 volts and 50 Hz to 120 volts and 60 Hz.

Electricity is not my forte, but can someone explain the difficulty in this? I do know that sailboats that leave US and elsewhere in the world have some sophisticated systems to handle this, so they can plug into 120 in US and 240 elsewhere. But that is not the case here. Just set up the US RV for 120 and use 120v inverters. There is no switching or mixed system voltages.

Originally Posted by mlts22

4: The US doesn't have the European appliance selection. This was far worse a few years ago, but Seitz windows (a staple for RVs in Europe) are not sold in the US, so the RV maker has to figure out what to do instead.

Looks like Seitz windows on Safari Condos, so I would think if they can get them in Canada, they can get them in US? Seitz is owned by Dometic and I read that Dometic seems to only allow North American sales of the Seitz windows to manufacturers, but not to individuals (DIYers)

[eurovanman]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I don't know, it may be more complicated to startup in this kind of business than one may assume.

At first I was thinking that it was a slam-dunk to just build them in Europe (keeping their existing production lines busy) and then simply import them. All you'd need Stateside is a dealer network (only! ). The advantage being the drop in the value of the Euro and the shared overhead with otherwise not-fully-utilized production lines.

I think the main issue with building them in Europe is you are not allowed to import the European Chassis, so they would have to ship vans from the US to Germany then back to the US. As far as I know.

[Gryphon]

Originally Posted by BobB

Electricity is not my forte, but can someone explain the difficulty in this? I do know that sailboats that leave US and elsewhere in the world have some sophisticated systems to handle this, so they can plug into 120 in US and 240 elsewhere. But that is not the case here. Just set up the US RV for 120 and use 120v inverters. There is no switching or mixed system voltages.

I think it depends on how the device is using the electrical power.

Most electronic devices, like the TV & DVD player, use DC power internally, so the device has a builtin converter that outputs the correct voltage whether the input is 120 or 240. Take a look at just about any "wall wart" and you'll see it works with either one (though once in a while you'll find one that doesn't). Making convertors that can handle either 120/60 or 240/50 is pretty much a solved problem, so systems that run off of 12V are going to be fine either way - the converter will handle it.

It's a different story if the device is using the 120 or 240 directly without conversion, like for instance the motor driving the compressor in an air conditioner, or the magnetron in a microwave. I think those kind of components are designed to use one specific voltage & frequency and tend not to be able to use both.

You're right that you could have a converter taking in shore power of either type & putting out 12v, and then a big inverter generating 120V for any appliance that needs it, but at that point you've basically designed the equivalent of an E-Trek.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by Gryphon

I think it depends on how the device is using the electrical power.

Most electronic devices, like the TV & DVD player, use DC power internally, so the device has a builtin converter that outputs the correct voltage whether the input is 120 or 240. Take a look at just about any "wall wart" and you'll see it works with either one (though once in a while you'll find one that doesn't). Making convertors that can handle either 120/60 or 240/50 is pretty much a solved problem, so systems that run off of 12V are going to be fine either way - the converter will handle it.

It's a different story if the device is using the 120 or 240 directly without conversion, like for instance the motor driving the compressor in an air conditioner, or the magnetron in a microwave. I think those kind of components are designed to use one specific voltage & frequency and tend not to be able to use both.

You're right that you could have a converter taking in shore power of either type & putting out 12v, and then a big inverter generating 120V for any appliance that needs it, but at that point you've basically designed the equivalent of an E-Trek.

Thanks for some more clarification on the issue.

Reading again the news release, it says the Grand Canyon will be engineered in Germany, but built in Michigan. A reasonable assumption is they will start with a US Promaster base, and while they may import things like cabinets (like Winnebago does now for the Travatos), they will probably just get 120v appliances - compressor fridge, A/C, etc. - right here in U.S.

Maybe someone on this forum is going to Elkhart for first hand look?

[markopolo]

I think the Elkhart open house is a industry event not open to the general public.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I think the Elkhart open house is a industry event not open to the general public.

Markopolo,

Thanks for that info. Went back to news release and read the fine print:

".......drawing more than 4,000 attendees from RV dealerships across the U.S. and Canada." [my emphasis]

[wincrasher]

Spoke with someone "in the know" today about Hymer. They have partnered with Spartan to build the vans. The difficulty is getting certifications in every state in the US and every province in Canada. It's a long and arduous process which they probably underestimated. There is alot of testing that needs to be done, as well as RVIA inspection and certification. It doesn't sound like an easy task to get in the motorized RV business.

[mlts22]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Spoke with someone "in the know" today about Hymer. They have partnered with Spartan to build the vans. The difficulty is getting certifications in every state in the US and every province in Canada. It's a long and arduous process which they probably underestimated. There is alot of testing that needs to be done, as well as RVIA inspection and certification. It doesn't sound like an easy task to get in the motorized RV business.

Very good point on that. That makes perfect sense why they have been quiet, since with all the regulations, who knows what may have to change to suit some legal body.

I'm just hoping they have a good dealer network. If they made a dealer network that was similar to cars, where one can buy one place, get warranty work done another, just that fact alone would get them many buyers.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

The difficulty is getting certifications in every state in the US and every province in Canada. It's a long and arduous process which they probably underestimated. There is alot of testing that needs to be done, as well as RVIA inspection and certification. It doesn't sound like an easy task to get in the motorized RV business.

That is very interesting. I guess if you want to produce RVs, send them to dealers and sell to the general public, you have to jump through a lot of hoops. One also probably needs all these certifications to even talk with dealers and setting up a network.

That could explain why small conversion companies - Sportmobile, Advanced RV, Safari Condo, and others -deal one on one with customers.

[troyd]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Thanks for the updated information. When you look at the specs on the Hymer USA site it is clear, no generator was listed, a cassette toilet was mentioned, and air-conditioning was not mentioned.

The Grand Canyon includes a rooftop A/C and generator. Quoting from http://hymer-usa.com/standard-equipment/:

• 11,000 Btu/hr Roof-Mounted Air Conditioner
• 2.8 kW Onan Generator w/Remote Start

I prefer a cassette toilet because it works in sub-freezing temperatures and doesn't require an RV-specific connection to dump.

[Nomad32]

Originally Posted by troyd

The Grand Canyon includes a rooftop A/C and generator. Quoting from http://hymer-usa.com/standard-equipment/:

• 11,000 Btu/hr Roof-Mounted Air Conditioner
• 2.8 kW Onan Generator w/Remote Start

I prefer a cassette toilet because it works in sub-freezing temperatures and doesn't require an RV-specific connection to dump.

Yeah, what got me excited about the Grand Canyon is that it can be outfitted for usage in all seasons - unlike most North American Class B models.

[stanw909]

Why only one floorplan? Have they never seen Travato 59k?Rumor has it that even Roadtrek is thinking about making one.