Roadtrek/Hymer Lithium/2nd alternator/Voltstart issues?

[BBQ]

.

If you don't mind me saying this,
I have said this to many many people...

It is crazy to think that
a collection of "mix-mash" technology of multiple vendors
with multiple points-of-failure
can step in at the times of need with 100% reliability.


IF you wouldn't trust it with a child,
you shouldn't trust it with a dog.

[booster]

Many folks that leave pets in the van, regardless of the manufacturer of the "foolproof" technology, also use some sort of remote notification temperature alarm sensing. Some of the cell phone based ones appear to be quite nice, but of course both locations need to have cell coverage 100% of the time to be of any certainty.

Personally, I don't think I would trust any of the systems without a backup alarm of some sort, even ARV, and the Roadtrek systems have seemed to have many more problems than others.

[ClassB4Me]

MarCELL 500 Cellular monitoring system



Details....

As you said nothing is foolproof therefore you need a good and reliable monitoring tool in addition to your HVAC solution.

I use this to monitor temperature in my vacation home 3,000 miles away.

Review from an RV Owner
We travel to dog shows with a 5th wheel RV and constantly worry about temperature when we are away from the trailer. If the power/AC failed, the dogs could be in trouble on a hot day.

This has been working out fairly well. I can go to their website and set a temperature alert and if it's exceeded, I will receive a text message on my smart phone. (It also sends power failures and humidity alerts.) The alert message comes in within a minute or two.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Common goal: We went with the EcoTrek/lithium/volt-start pkg. on our new Versatile to be able to leave our dog in a "worry-free" air conditioned coach. I tested the volt start for the 1st time this afternoon. We turned on the coach a/c, the dashboard a/c, the inverter, both EcoTrek modules and the battery "disconnect" to assure ourselves the a/c would not shut down. Volt start instructions were followed to the letter. The VoltStart FAILED TO START THE ENGINE after the initial 35 minute manual start shutdown and we found the a/c off and the battery light out when we went out to check on it. Anybody experience this issue? I will test again tomorrow, then it is in to the shop. After our Balmar regulator failed on our first trip, we are trying to stay positive, but quickly losing confidence in the whole concept. And confidence in the system was the whole reason we spent 100k.

I'm waiting for some information toward addressing your question. In the mean time, tell us about the Balmar regulator, i.e. what were the failure symptoms, how was the problem identified, and was it replaced by Roadtrek or directly from Balmar?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Common goal: We went with the EcoTrek/lithium/volt-start pkg. on our new Versatile to be able to leave our dog in a "worry-free" air conditioned coach. I tested the volt start for the 1st time this afternoon. We turned on the coach a/c, the dashboard a/c, the inverter, both EcoTrek modules and the battery "disconnect" to assure ourselves the a/c would not shut down. Volt start instructions were followed to the letter. The VoltStart FAILED TO START THE ENGINE after the initial 35 minute manual start shutdown and we found the a/c off and the battery light out when we went out to check on it. Anybody experience this issue? I will test again tomorrow, then it is in to the shop. After our Balmar regulator failed on our first trip, we are trying to stay positive, but quickly losing confidence in the whole concept. And confidence in the system was the whole reason we spent 100k.

in general i actually think voltstart and ecotrek can work together. However the main flaw i've found is people thinking voltstat will keep air conditioner running!

if the batteries have gotten low enough to trigger voltstart thinking your extra alternator will BOTH run air conditioner AND recharge the batteries at same time seems like overreach. the air conditioner uses at least 120 dc amps if not more. surges from the compressor can easily exceed that by a factor of 5 even if it's only for a short period. the voltstart recharging batteries i can see and agree with-the voltstart charging batteries and keeping air conditioner going is a prayer. The inverter/charger will try to protect the batteries by shutting off the inverter. It has no way of knowing if the compressor surge will last 5 seconds or 5 hours. If the batteries have gotten low enough-and voltstart has started the next surge will trip the inverter/charger off.


i would only depend on the air conditioner for operation from the battery charge you have. depending on voltstart to keeep AC running is a mistake

[BBQ]

.

If I were the designer,
I would get VS to start the engine,
use the dash A/C,
and use the 2nd alternator to recharge the batteries.
Leave the roof top A/C out of the equation.

[Beanbug]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

in general i actually think voltstart and ecotrek can work together. However the main flaw i've found is people thinking voltstat will keep air conditioner running!

if the batteries have gotten low enough to trigger voltstart thinking your extra alternator will BOTH run air conditioner AND recharge the batteries at same time seems like overreach. the air conditioner uses at least 120 dc amps if not more. surges from the compressor can easily exceed that by a factor of 5 even if it's only for a short period. the voltstart recharging batteries i can see and agree with-the voltstart charging batteries and keeping air conditioner going is a prayer. The inverter/charger will try to protect the batteries by shutting off the inverter. It has no way of knowing if the compressor surge will last 5 seconds or 5 hours. If the batteries have gotten low enough-and voltstart has started the next surge will trip the inverter/charger off.


i would only depend on the air conditioner for operation from the battery charge you have. depending on voltstart to keeep AC running is a mistake

GerriM has understood my situation and hit the nail on the head, for which I am both grateful and dissapointed. Grateful to GerriM, disappointed in the fact that VoltStart can't be relied upon to keep my A/C running when the batteries finally get low after running the A/C. We truly bought this vehicle because we thought, and were actually led to believe by Jim Hammill, CEO of Roadtrek, that the VoltStart and UG would keep the A/C running continuously, so we did not have to fear that our dog would be jeopardized. Jim even did some electrical calculations in front of us when we negotiated the purchase. I do sense that the Lithium technology is both revolutionary and forward thinking, but it isn't providing the "worry free" RV use that we hoped to achieve. Thanks, GerriM. Beanbug.

[Beanbug]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I'm waiting for some information toward addressing your question. In the mean time, tell us about the Balmar regulator, i.e. what were the failure symptoms, how was the problem identified, and was it replaced by Roadtrek or directly from Balmar?

Cruising7388, I don't have an answer yet on the failure of the Balmar MC-614 regulator. I am in touch-and-go communication with Adam Nations of Nations Starter and Alternator who is very personable. I will update when I have an answer. In short, it fried. I would have thought there'd be a fuse to keep that from happening, but the 10A fuse only protects the system downstream from the regulator, like the inverter. We lost all coach power about 15 minutes after I unknowingly used the a/c and microwave simultaneously ( the mic for only 60 seconds ), but IT DID NOT QUIT DURING USE OF THE MICROWAVE, if that overload was the cause as one would think. I am told by Mac at Roadtrek that the system cannot handle both the mic and the a/c simultaneously, ever. Live and learn. Nevertheless, it has not been determined why the regulator fried and why it isn't protected. That is all I know right now.

[booster]

It is really too bad that the OP isn't getting what he thought he would from the lithium and voltstart.

As Gerry mentioned, the mutually exclusive air conditioning and battery charging issue, is real, and has been known about for a long time. Even ARV has had to address the issue of the dreaded "death spiral" where the batteries keep getting lower and lower every charging cycle while running the AC.

Roadtrek certainly knows it happens, but stays quiet about it to help sales, it would appear.

The electrical calcs mentioned were likely to show how the 285 amp alternator would easily be able to keep up with the AC and the battery charging. The problem is that the 285 amp alternator will net out at closer to 165 amps on average due to output reductions due to heat. The Balmar regulator also gets stressed from the thermal cycling it does as it continuously goes up and down in power to control alternator temps.

The manufacturers like Roadtrek keep touting the big alternators as being good for pets, but in reality they are not even needed for that in most cases. Many of us have questioned all along why the don't just use the engine and dash air, with auto start. Cop cars with canines have been doing it for many years that way.

Lithium and big alternators have their place, but, IMO, it is more in the large battery bank, off grid, rapid recharging areas, not so you can run AC of the batteries and alternator all the time.

We all remember the original Roadtrek claims for the etrek when it came out with 800ah of agm batteries....run the AC all night and then recharge in 45 minutes.... They stuck to that a long time, insulting anyone who would question it, but the etrek couldn't come any where near doing that kind of performance. I fear we are going to see some of that on the newer stuff too, unless they get more accurate and upfront with what the capabilities really are in the real world.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

in general i actually think voltstart and ecotrek can work together. However the main flaw i've found is people thinking voltstat will keep air conditioner running!

if the batteries have gotten low enough to trigger voltstart thinking your extra alternator will BOTH run air conditioner AND recharge the batteries at same time seems like overreach. the air conditioner uses at least 120 dc amps if not more. surges from the compressor can easily exceed that by a factor of 5 even if it's only for a short period. the voltstart recharging batteries i can see and agree with-the voltstart charging batteries and keeping air conditioner going is a prayer. The inverter/charger will try to protect the batteries by shutting off the inverter. It has no way of knowing if the compressor surge will last 5 seconds or 5 hours. If the batteries have gotten low enough-and voltstart has started the next surge will trip the inverter/charger off.


i would only depend on the air conditioner for operation from the battery charge you have. depending on voltstart to keeep AC running is a mistake

It's not flawed thinking to assume that Voltstsrt will keep the AC running. The flaw is assuming that once Voltstart activates that it will keep the AC running through the following four Voltstart repeat cycles for very long.

There are multiple variables involved in the actual initial AC run time available prior to Voltstart actuation. It's amp-hour dependent. An ECO200 will get you around 45 minutes, the ECO400 about 90 minutes and the ECO800 between 2.5 - 3 hours. However,, the temp set you effect for the AC and the outside temperature will affect the AC duty cycle and consequently the run times.

At the point that Voltstart actuates, battery capacity is no longer relevant. As you point out, the Nations alternator commits about 120 amps to support the AC via the inverter and running hot, leaves just in the whereabouts of 40 amps directed to the battery(s) which is woefully insufficient to fully recharge the batteries during the 35 minute Voltstart. However, it will provide sufficient recharging to satisfy the BMS threshold and when the engine shuts down, the AC will run for just a short period before Voltstart kicks on again. This short cycling will continue till Voltstart quits cycling without a manual reset.

Roadtrek is not alone in experiencing this problem. ARV observed the same problem when providing the Nations alternator. They resolved it by switching to a Delco alternator rated at 330 amps compared to the 280 amp nations unit. Additionally, the Delco has a significantly less derating under hot conditions. The drawback is that it's about twice the size of the Nations alternator and while there is sufficient space to mount it in Sprinter, I don't think there is any way it can be crammed into a Promaster. Don't know about the Transit.

There is an amperage surge during the AC start but I think most of the current generation of RV ACs utilize soft-start technology to mitigate this.
Also, the Voltstart actuates the Nations alternator while the battery(s) state is still above BMS shutdown. Since the inverter input is never interrupted, there shouldn't be an AC shutdown that would prompt a restart with any attendant amperage surge. In other words, I don't think the inverter cares where it's getting its suds from.

You indicate that under an amperage surge condition that the inverter will shut down to protect the battery. I don't think so. The inverter is unconcerned with the welfare of the battery. It's only interested in the voltage the battery is supplying to its terminals and will shut down only from either 120VAC over demand or an unacceptably low/high voltage or excess AC ripple at the 12V input terminals. Yes, you're right, the inverter will shut down under either or both of these above conditions, but the shutdown is for the protection of itself and appliances it supports, not out of deference to the battery.

[gerrym51]

Gee-cruising-give a man abreak-lol . Perhaps i should have said stop the batteries from totally emptying. Protect and defend i say

[avanti]

Wouldn't it make more sense to work on a robotic dog?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

We all remember the original Roadtrek claims for the etrek when it came out with 800ah of agm batteries....run the AC all night and then recharge in 45 minutes....d.

Au contraire, Roadtrek's claim you can run the AC all night with 800ah is very accurate ...while camped for the night near the north pole during mid summer.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Gee-cruising-give a man abreak-lol . Perhaps i should have said stop the batteries from totally emptying. Protect and defend i say

Hey, I thought your post was excellent and it prompted me to sit down and fully understand the process called the death spiral.

As a practical matter, if the coach AC is going to be on for more than a few minutes, I think it makes more sense to just idle the engine (if not prohibited when unattended), have the alternator handle the coach AC load and let the batteries loaf.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Hey, I thought your post was excellent and it prompted me to sit down and fully understand the process called the death spiral.

As a practical matter, if the coach AC is going to be on for more than a few minutes, I think it makes more sense to just idle the engine (if not prohibited when unattended), have the alternator handle the coach AC load and let the batteries loaf.

But it makes even more sense to let the batteries and the coach AC and the alternator loaf, and just run the dash AC that came with the van

[Beanbug]

Everyone has had such good input. I am so happy to have found Class B forum. I am getting conflicting answers to the question: Should the Volt Start with UG be able to run the A/C without interruption. If I start with two full lithium modules and can count on the VS to do so, it buys me the 3 - 4 hours which is the max we would ever leave the dog alone. If not, I have to return to the vehicle to start the engine manually and then either use the dash a/c or coach a/c or both. Forum consensus seems to be "no" but RT sales and authorized service centers imply "yes". I will have to find out through real world testing. I don't have the electrical engineering knowledge to even calculate it theoretically based on amps generated vs. required. I look forward to visiting the forum often and value all of your knowledge, opinions and advice.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Everyone has had such good input. I am so happy to have found Class B forum. I am getting conflicting answers to the question: Should the Volt Start with UG be able to run the A/C without interruption. If I start with two full lithium modules and can count on the VS to do so, it buys me the 3 - 4 hours which is the max we would ever leave the dog alone. If not, I have to return to the vehicle to start the engine manually and then either use the dash a/c or coach a/c or both. Forum consensus seems to be "no" but RT sales and authorized service centers imply "yes". I will have to find out through real world testing. I don't have the electrical engineering knowledge to even calculate it theoretically based on amps generated vs. required. I look forward to visiting the forum often and value all of your knowledge, opinions and advice.

'implying' is not the same as saying it will.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

But it makes even more sense to let the batteries and the coach AC and the alternator loaf, and just run the dash AC that came with the van

Sure, provided that climate conditions permits sufficient cooling for the mutt. Dash AC output is somewhat lower at engine idle and would help cooling the interior if the dash air mode is switched to recirculate from fresh air.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

As Gerry mentioned, the mutually exclusive air conditioning and battery charging issue, is real, and has been known about for a long time. Even ARV has had to address the issue of the dreaded "death spiral" where the batteries keep getting lower and lower every charging cycle while running the AC.

While the Nations alternator does have its multitasking limitations, I don't think the dreaded "death spiral" characterization accurately reflects the consequences which seem more aggravating than disastrous.

First, I don't think there is a spiral discharge effect at the battery because the remaining Voltstart sequences after the initial one will provide the same 35 minute recharge to the battery.

Second, when Voltstart completes its last sequence, very shortly afterward the BMS protected battery shuts off. With no battery voltage at its input, the inverter shuts off. With no inverter output, the AC shuts off. Sure, everything shuts down which would be a PITA, but I don't see any damage or death to any components.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Beanbug

Everyone has had such good input. I am so happy to have found Class B forum. I am getting conflicting answers to the question: Should the Volt Start with UG be able to run the A/C without interruption. If I start with two full lithium modules and can count on the VS to do so, it buys me the 3 - 4 hours which is the max we would ever leave the dog alone. If not, I have to return to the vehicle to start the engine manually and then either use the dash a/c or coach a/c or both. Forum consensus seems to be "no" but RT sales and authorized service centers imply "yes". I will have to find out through real world testing. I don't have the electrical engineering knowledge to even calculate it theoretically based on amps generated vs. required. I look forward to visiting the forum often and value all of your knowledge, opinions and advice.

For openers, regardless of the pitch by the sales force, remember that the six year warranty doesn't cover the medical treatment of an injured pet or the replacement of a dead one.

Real world operating period for 400ah lithium? Depending on outside temp and your AC set temp, somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 minutes.

If you expect leave the dog unattended more than a couple of hours, I think the safest thing would be to forget employing Voltstart and just let the engine idle.