E Trek battery replacement

[PaulB]

Here's the update: we determined that this RT was originally purchased before Aug 1, 2015, so the batteries should be covered. Took it to a dealer, where RT has been stringing them along running different tests for 3 weeks. RT has now determined that the batteries are not covered because the charging systems are working within their parameters. Consequently, the batteries just "wore out", presumably due to improper maintenance. The previous owners insist that they had it plugged in to shore power the entire time they owned it except when driving. RT says that all of the forum posts here and elsewhere where discuss similar problems, design flaws, and a need for an equilizer don't matter. Disappointing to say the least. Now I'm out the cost of the batteries as well as shop time for the diagnostics.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Here's the update: we determined that this RT was originally purchased before Aug 1, 2015, so the batteries should be covered. Took it to a dealer, where RT has been stringing them along running different tests for 3 weeks. RT has now determined that the batteries are not covered because the charging systems are working within their parameters. Consequently, the batteries just "wore out", presumably due to improper maintenance. The previous owners insist that they had it plugged in to shore power the entire time they owned it except when driving. RT says that all of the forum posts here and elsewhere where discuss similar problems, design flaws, and a need for an equilizer don't matter. Disappointing to say the least. Now I'm out the cost of the batteries as well as shop time for the diagnostics.

Too bad.

They strung you for weeks? Consider yourself lucky. Many people had their RV sat in the dealer's lot for months with no resolution.




I would never buy a Roadtrek.

[booster]

Originally Posted by PaulB

Here's the update: we determined that this RT was originally purchased before Aug 1, 2015, so the batteries should be covered. Took it to a dealer, where RT has been stringing them along running different tests for 3 weeks. RT has now determined that the batteries are not covered because the charging systems are working within their parameters. Consequently, the batteries just "wore out", presumably due to improper maintenance. The previous owners insist that they had it plugged in to shore power the entire time they owned it except when driving. RT says that all of the forum posts here and elsewhere where discuss similar problems, design flaws, and a need for an equilizer don't matter. Disappointing to say the least. Now I'm out the cost of the batteries as well as shop time for the diagnostics.

Blatant BS, IMO, as how can you abuse only 1/2 of the batteries in a system if the 4 good 4 bad thing is happening to etreks. It has been documented by several folks that the batteries do not charge and discharge evenly when used "correctly". If you are going to have to replace the batteries at your cost, probably time to get the balancer in there at the same time if it isn't there. How does Roadtrek explain that they have replaced batteries and installed balancers to fix bad systems when there were failures? How did they know the owners of those vans didn't "abuse" them the same way?

The only abuse here is what the batteries get from the poorly designed and implemented system, and the way that Roadtrek treats their customers. So much for improved customer service. I do wonder if you are also being punished for posting here of the issues, as we have heard Roadtrek has started doing that kind of stuff.

I hope everyone who is contemplating buying a Roadtrek because of the great warranty sees this and calls Roadtrek to ask how this can happen, and why it wouldn't happen to them in the future if they buy one.

[booster]

I just noticed you are in Minnesota, so I assume Lake Region RV was doing the work. It may pay to talk to Dale, if you haven't already, for guidance.

There have been several discussions here about etrek batteries and solutions, including the one I like the best if you don't absolutely need the 800ah at 12 and could get by with 640ah (likely unless you want to run AC a lot, but AGM is not all that good for that anyway). The change would be to replace the 8 6 volt AGM batteries with 6 8 volt ones all in the back compartment to get rid of the long cable issues and heat issues of the front batteries. At the same time you would add a 24 to 12 volt DC to DC battery charger/power supply to run the 12v items in the coach. Having all the batteries in one place gets excellent charging and discharging balance and also allows a common ground so you could use a shunt based battery monitor system on it. No balancer would be needed.

It is first discussed here, in the middle of a good discussion of the issues.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...html#post36000

There are also other suggestions in the discussion about other solutions, including balancers.

This is another discussion of similar issues you may also want to look at.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...nt-3947-4.html

I don't know where in Minnesota you are, but we are about 10 miles from Lake Regions RV. I would be happy to get together to get a look at your etrek setup, as they all seem to be a bit different and I have never had the chance to closely look at one to see what is going on.

If you plan on keeping the van for a while, making a bigger improvement may be more cost effective than replacing batteries and adding a balancer.

[booster]

As mentioned before, very low use etreks sure seem to show up a lot for sale.

2015 Roadtrek E-Trek Mercedes Diesel Sprinter Low Miles Warranty Transfers Van

They make a big deal about the warranty transferring.

I think they should be required to give whomever considers buying this one a copy of this discussion thread. This is another etrek that is very likely to have battery issues, and if history repeats, the owner will get stuck with no battery warranty.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

As mentioned before, very low use etreks sure seem to show up a lot for sale.

2015 Roadtrek E-Trek Mercedes Diesel Sprinter Low Miles Warranty Transfers Van

They make a big deal about the warranty transferring.

I think they should be required to give whomever considers buying this one a copy of this discussion thread. This is another etrek that is very likely to have battery issues, and if history repeats, the owner will get stuck with no battery warranty.

Are the failing batteries AGMs rather than lithiums?

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Are the failing batteries AGMs rather than lithiums?

The etreks go back further than the lithium battery setups, so the many of the failures are AGM related, as the system used by Roadtrek was horribly designed. The one in the link is AGM, it appears. My guess is that any lithium problems would get lumped in with the other models that use lithium, so hard to tell if they have more, less, or the same amount of them as the other models.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

The etreks go back further than the lithium battery setups, so the many of the failures are AGM related, as the system used by Roadtrek was horribly designed. The one in the link is AGM, it appears. My guess is that any lithium problems would get lumped in with the other models that use lithium, so hard to tell if they have more, less, or the same amount of them as the other models.

I don't think you can get an AGM equipped Etrek model any longer. It's either 800ah lithiums or the 1600 warp core option.

PaulB mentions that RT is claiming "improper maintenance" as the cause of the battery(s) failure which doesn't make sense because in the 8 AGM battery configuration, all the batteries are on a common bus and if there is improper maintenance, they would all be subject to the failure described. More to the point, what maintenance? These are sealed batteries and there is nothing to maintain. Perhaps RT is claiming damaging depth of discharge operation but even if this were this case, all the batteries would be subjected to the came consequences.

An advantage of the lithium battery setup is that battery operation and depth of discharge (DOD) is controlled by the battery management system, (BMS). Consequently, short of tampering with the BMS, there is no way that the owner can override the BMS program and consequently there is no room for any claim of improper maintenance or operation. And, AFAIK, the lithium setup doesn't incorporate any balancing network.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I don't think you can get an AGM equipped Etrek model any longer. It's either 800ah lithiums or the 1600 warp core option.

PaulB mentions that RT is claiming "improper maintenance" as the cause of the battery(s) failure which doesn't make sense because in the 8 AGM battery configuration, all the batteries are on a common bus and if there is improper maintenance, they would all be subject to the failure described. More to the point, what maintenance? These are sealed batteries and there is nothing to maintain. Perhaps RT is claiming damaging depth of discharge operation but even if this were this case, all the batteries would be subjected to the came consequences.

The AGM system is not as you envision it. It is a 24v based system with a center tap for the 12v power. Without a balancer, it will quickly kill off 2 or 4 of the batteries, regardless of how "well" you treat the system. Two of the batteries are also in the hot engine compartment and at the end of 15+ feet of cable, so horrible mismatch of cabling which makes it all worse yet.

Roadtrek knows these etreks eat batteries, but apparently decided that it is too expensive to honor their warranty on them, that Hammill had made such a big deal about when they put it on, claiming you should not be afraid of the battery system because the warranty had you protected for 6 years.

They haven't given a manner to which the batteries were abused, and their instructions are nothing special so very shaky ground, especially when they say they might just have "worn out".

I think anyone with a long Roadtrek warranty should be a bit concerned, as it appears that Roadtrek will just bail on any problem that is happening too often, no matter what the warranty says.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

The AGM system is not as you envision it. It is a 24v based system with a center tap for the 12v power. Without a balancer, it will quickly kill off 2 or 4 of the batteries, regardless of how "well" you treat the system. Two of the batteries are also in the hot engine compartment and at the end of 15+ feet of cable, so horrible mismatch of cabling which makes it all worse yet.

Roadtrek knows these etreks eat batteries, but apparently decided that it is too expensive to honor their warranty on them, that Hammill had made such a big deal about when they put it on, claiming you should not be afraid of the battery system because the warranty had you protected for 6 years.

They haven't given a manner to which the batteries were abused, and their instructions are nothing special so very shaky ground, especially when they say they might just have "worn out".

I think anyone with a long Roadtrek warranty should be a bit concerned, as it appears that Roadtrek will just bail on any problem that is happening too often, no matter what the warranty says.

My understanding is that the initial Etrek production utilized a 24 volt GU and the battery split you describe but I thought that this arrangement was quickly scrapped in favor of an 8 battery 12 volt system with a 12 volt GU.

Different cable lengths was of little if any consequence when the practical charge and discharge patterns involved low amperage levels.. Now, with the advent of low internal resistance AGMs and high amperage alternators, it's an issue because different cable lengths in high amperage conditions cause different different charge and discharge rates to and from each battery even though they are on a common bus. More important, as you point out, charging multiple batteries with different electrolyte temps from a single source is problematic. But with the physical limitations of a class B, with 800ah capacity, I doubt that it can be entirely avoided.

With respect to not honoring warranty provisions, when chump change is involved, this can probably be done without consequences. But doing this with a problem protected by warranty that requires 4 figures to correct would seem to invite litigation.

[booster]

The 2016 brochure still shows 8 X 6volt batteries and a 24v engine generator. 2017 shows only Ecotrek lithium available so that would be the first of the 12v systems and end of the AGM 24v.

And yes, at these amounts, and the amount of information that is available to support the bad design claim, they are asking for, and deserve, litigations.

Cable length variations between batteries has always been an issue for lead acid batteries, wet and AGM, as the the charging amps and volts are only equal once the batteries are totally full, so the batteries will see differing times at absorption voltage as well as lower amps and volts during absorption and not get evenly charged. Same is true at discharge.

Putting the two batteries in the front was one of the bad design issues. They should have made room for them in the back, and there they could have gotten very good cable length matching. Of course, they have never worried about that before, so the likely wouldn't have matched them anyway.

Past history is a good predictor of future behavior in many cases, and likely applies here, especially lately.

Consider a few weeks ago they sent letters to customers with problems telling them that if they posted bad things on the internet about their vans, their warranty claims would go to the end of the list, so basically never done, and that the customers should delete anything bad immediately to prevent that happening. Blatant intimidation.

Now we have valid, IMO, warranty claims for thousands of dollars worth of batteries being declined based on essentially nothing. All of this after Hammill had touted to folks a few years ago that they could buy the, by then questionable, systems without any worry because of the warranty had them covered for 6 years.

Put this on top of the original, totally false, specs they pushed or a long, long, time so they could sell more, for the etrek, and there sure does seem to be a credibility issue here. And I don't see it ending soon, it is sad to say.

[BBQ]

...

Consider a few weeks ago they sent letters to customers with problems telling them that if they posted bad things on the internet about their vans, their warranty claims would go to the end of the list, so basically never done, and that the customers should delete anything bad immediately to prevent that happening. Blatant intimidation.

...

This is mafia tactics.


The company's integrity determines the company's future.
The company's future is determined by the company's integrity.
The company's integrity is the sum of all the integrities of employees and associates of the company.

The problem is not the technology; this is not space-age new.

The problem is the people -- they are incompetent, and they don't even know it.

To make things worse, they would not stand behind their products. They would not do the right thing -- fix the customers' problems and make them whole.

The internet has many stories of such terrible customer experiences -- They keep stringing them and putting them off, until the customers got so desperate that they had to go to the social media to ask for help.

This is sad.
This is the mafia's way of doing business.
Roadtrek was a good company, with good products and good reputations.
Roadtrek is a strong brand; it has a loyal following.
But I don't know how long this will last;
These bozos are going to run it to the ground.

You can run.
You can hide.
But sooner than later,
Karma will catch up with you, individually.

[markopolo]

Five snippets from a 2014 E-Trek owner manual:

page 81 -

Warranty Intent
The intent of this extended warranty is to ensure the new owner of a Roadtrek that it is worry free from manufacturer caused
defects for the first six (6) years of use. The first owners of this E-Trek unit can feel comfortable that Roadtrek is fully behind
them for six (6) years, including the E-Trek AGM Batteries!!!

AGM Battery Warranty
Roadtrek Motorhomes will, under the six year warranty, at its option, replace or rebuild free of charge (including related
labor) any defective AGM coach battery from date of purchase by the first Purchaser or the date the Vehicle was first put into
service (for example, as a demo or rental), whichever is earlier.

page 51 -

Roadtrek does not cover warranty replacement of the batteries for
lack of maintenance.

There is no user maintenance possible on these batteries except keeping them charged.

There is no user maintenance possible on these batteries.

Given that 1. solar charges the batteries if the coach is outdoors, 2. grid power charges the batteries whenever plugged in & 3. the aux alternator aka Engine Generator charges the batteries if the engine is ever started one could argue that it would be difficult if not near impossible to NOT charge the batteries.

The published Intent and declaration of no maintenance possible or alternately that the only maintenance possible is charging would seem to make it very difficult to deny battery related claims. Perhaps a court decision is needed to help clarify the warranty coverage of the batteries.

[booster]

Interesting that it says "first owners" in the warranty in 2014. When did it become transferable?

[markopolo]

My interpretation of that is that it sets a start date for the warranty coverage. The warranty doesn't restart on subsequent resales (as it has already started). The warranty would end 6 years after the original purchase date.

[booster]

That makes sense for the warranty itself statement, but it is also stated in the intent one that the first owners could be content for six years.

Does the warranty itself have any comments about transferability any other place?

I just looked at the 2014 warranty and it doesn't have a transfer statement, but pretty much everything else Roadtrek has said about it would indicate that all of them are transferable.

[BBQ]

.

ps. The six-year warranty is not free. The cost is built-in to the purchase price. You have already paid for it.

[booster]

We haven't heard from the OP for a while. I hope that Roadtrek decided to step up and honor their warranty for him. Of course the way they monitor this site, he could have "banned" for life by them for posting his issues.